2025 CASE Awards Entry 1: Brian McKeon (excerpt)

00:00:00 Carlos Ramos: Welcome to Tomorrow Makers, where we explore how we learn, live, work, and play now and in the future. I'm Carlos Ramos. 00:00:10 Sumer Beatty: And I'm Sumer Beatty. 00:00:11 Carlos Ramos: Hey there. 00:00:12 Sumer Beatty: Hi. 00:00:13 Carlos Ramos: All right, we are back again. Inside baseball, we actually did like three of these right in a row, but. 00:00:18 Sumer Beatty: No one needed to know that. I was gonna say I'm so exhausted after talking to Brian because he is just a jack of all trades. 00:00:26 Carlos Ramos: I'm still exhausted. Yeah. It's been weeks. 00:00:28 Sumer Beatty: Oh my. Do you guys know Brian? Do you know Brian McKeon? He is the assistant professor of biology at Penn College, and I said to Carlos, that's an understatement. I mean, this guy has done everything. 00:00:41 Carlos Ramos: If there is a picture of the Renaissance man on Wikipedia, whatever that is, I think I'm just going to have to go to Wikipedia and put Brian's photo. 00:00:48 Sumer Beatty: In a kilt. 00:00:49 Carlos Ramos: In a Superman cape. 00:00:50 Sumer Beatty: In a Superman shirt. 00:00:52 Carlos Ramos: Is it a cape or a shirt? It's a shirt. 00:00:53 Sumer Beatty: I think he probably has both. I mean, he should if he doesn't. So everyone's probably confused. Yeah. So Brian has a bachelor's and master's in molecular biology, minor in chemistry. He conducted some HIV research, and then he decided he was going to get his PhD in philosophy. 00:01:12 Carlos Ramos: And somewhere in there is a paralegal, like, I think, after all of that, right? 00:01:16 Sumer Beatty: Oh, he has taken classes at Penn College since he started here, so he has a degree, a paralegal degree, he's taken culinary and hospitality courses, business administration, chemical dependency, I think he has a total, almost 100 credits from Penn College. Just the epitome of a lifelong learner. 00:01:35 Carlos Ramos: And these are things that he doesn't just take them to take them. He has a genuine interest in making sure that he has that knowledge to be able to engage in whatever conversation and to put that through that philosophical filter as well. I mean, he's just amazing. 00:01:49 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, he's like, yeah, drawing connections from here and there and here and there. And I can't imagine being in his class. He's probably just so insightful. Actually, Towards the end of our discussion, I'm pretty sure Carlos and I were both like, can we take your class? How can we fit this into our schedules? Because, and he welcomed that, you know, just to even come in for one class. And I think that it was just as enlightening as this conversation was. I'm sure it would be a repeat experience in the classroom. 00:02:15 Carlos Ramos: So Brian, if you are listening, you don't have time for that, but we will see you. 00:02:19 Sumer Beatty: Yes. 00:02:19 Carlos Ramos: All right. So here we go. Tomorrow Makers with Brian McKeon. So you've been here how many years? 00:02:33 Brian McKeon: I just finished 19. I'm finishing up 19 years. I came in 2005, so August of 2025 will be, I've completed 20. 00:02:43 Carlos Ramos: Congratulations. 00:02:44 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, that's impressive. 00:02:45 Brian McKeon: I've taught for 25 at the moment. 00:02:48 Carlos Ramos: Okay, where'd you teach before this? 00:02:50 Brian McKeon: Before this, I taught at Binghamton University and Broome Community College in Binghamton. Binghamton's where I got my doctorate. Before that, I taught at Penn State Erie, and before that, I was doing HIV research. 00:03:04 Carlos Ramos: And did you know of Penn College? 00:03:06 Brian McKeon: I did not. I didn't hear about Penn College until I was looking for a job. 00:03:10 Sumer Beatty: What attracted you to Penn College? 00:03:12 Brian McKeon: When I was in Binghamton at Broome Community College, I was what they called a full time adjunct. I had contracts every semester, but I had health insurance and all that stuff. They got a new president and the president said, well, we're not doing this anymore. So I had to apply for jobs and, Penn College, I liked that it was small classroom size, no research. I had done research. I wasn't interested in research and teaching. And I had to have a job. I had kids to feed. But Penn College, interestingly enough, advertised early. I had a job offer by February. of that year, whereas all the other jobs were only starting to advertise and I liked it a lot when I came here. When I came here, the people were amazing. I really liked the administrators that I met and the faculty. So all of that really sold me. But, it did help that I didn't have to wait till June. to know if I was going to teach somewhere in August because my job was going away in August. 00:04:06 Sumer Beatty: And you came here to teach which subjects? Because for our listeners, we were attracted to talking to Brian because I just couldn't keep up with all of the different areas that you're involved with. You have so many different interests and areas of expertise. It's just, it's amazing. 00:04:22 Brian McKeon: I appreciate it. so originally my bachelor's and master's are molecular biology and I had a minor in chemistry and then I did some HIV research. And then when I went to teach at Penn State Erie, I had my master's and I was a lab coordinator and I, I got involved with a philosopher there and he and I were talking and he said, you know, I think you'd like philosophy. So when I moved to Binghamton, I got into the PhD program in philosophy. And, I liked that because that really helped me to be a better scientist, a better professor, I thought, in terms of honing my ability to ask questions. I've always questioned everything, but this really gave me the tools to do a better job of that. And when I came here and I could take classes for free, I thought that being in the classroom one, I would gain information. It's not that I couldn't learn it on my own, but you know, if you're sitting in the classroom and taking classes for credit, it forces you to fine. I'll memorize this. I'll study this. Even if I'm tired, that was a nice thing being in class. I learned stuff that if I was tired or busy, I wouldn't have taken the time to do, but then I had forced myself to do it. And ultimately, I wanted to take as many classes as I could to, because I like learning things. I want to be entirely self sufficient whenever I can be. So I'd like learning those things. But I also liked Being able to relate better with students. When I was probably in my early 20s, I was having a conversation with someone and I knew a little bit of what they were talking about. But afterwards, I was kind of embarrassed that I didn't know enough, like I wanted to know more. So early on in my life, I decided I wanted to be able to converse with anyone in any situation and be at least semi intelligent, know their language a little bit. That's how I connect with people to the best of my ability. So ultimately now I see myself as a sort of a jack of all trades, but master of one. My goal was to be a master as a teacher to the best of my ability. Hopefully someday I'll have that down. But I can relate with students because when they talk to me about their programs or their classes, bring things up, I, I can understand those things because I've... and I also say to them, look, I'm in class. I've been in class my entire life. So I understand that you have a lot of work to do, that you have families. I've always had a family and a job, multiple jobs usually. So being able to relate to them and help them learn, I think, came easier for me because of those interactions that I had in the classroom, in those different topics. 00:06:52 Carlos Ramos: That seems to be pretty consistent here among faculty that I've met that aren't in the applied technology majors that we have. Is that your impression as well? That the faculty do know a little bit about the welding program, they know about the nursing program, they know about the automotive program? 00:07:10 Brian McKeon: Yeah, I definitely think that's the case. We have advisees. that often start off undecided and we're happening trying to help them transition into those programs. And, you know, with advising, we spent a lot of time with students, obviously trying to help guide them. We don't, when they're in their programs, the humanities and the general education people don't necessarily advise them directly. Although I do have students come back, you know, depending on how their semester is going. But we, we try to be knowledgeable of what the students are getting into. At least for me, when I came here, I decided to ask the programs. What is it that your students have not been getting from the classes you think they need? What is it that's changing in your accreditations that you think they should have? I've tried to do that, when I was in the sciences. And even now, I, have a better understanding because I've been taking the classes but, but my goal is to teach the students things that are going to benefit them. I don't, I'm not interested in just teaching them things just to teach them. You must memorize this. That's not my goal. And from what I can tell, my colleagues are very similar in that. So yeah, we try to understand the programs because then we can do a better job relating the material to the students interests. 00:08:19 Carlos Ramos: Was that your experience at previous institutions? Is that, so it's not even really common that you see that in others? 00:08:26 Brian McKeon: No, I have not. Penn College is, is pretty cool. We go out of our way to hire people who were experts in their fields. And we don't require research. Our sole focus is teaching. So you get in the majors, you get people who did those jobs and worked really hard at those jobs and became good at those jobs. And now they're passing that information on. That's really cool. But we also get to focus entirely on teaching. So we don't have to make half of our salary or half of our load in research. And to me, that's a big deal because when you're an expert in your field and you get to focus all your energy on teaching your passion, I think that makes for a really good combination. 00:09:06 Sumer Beatty: So have you taken classes in every school or every, I'm curious how, when I look at the classes that you've taken, they're all over the place. How do you determine which classes to take? Are you trying to just kind of dip your toe in every area? Or is it, oh, this instructor, I'm curious what they have to say, I want to learn more about. What they have to say. Is it subject area? 00:09:32 Brian McKeon: Yeah, combination. So, the first requirement is they have to fit my teaching schedule. And I always teach the maximum that I'm allowed to teach. So, that narrows it down. I would love to take automotive classes, welding classes, construction stuff. I've taught myself a little bit of all those things, but I'd rather learn from the experts. But with their block scheduling, it generally doesn't fit my schedule. If my schedule changes in the future, then that might be something, but it would have to be consistent. So originally it was schedule. I got a paralegal degree when I was here, before the programs changed. So I really liked that. And then after that, I was, I actually got into the, hospitality program, culinary hospitality. But right after I started that, they switched to eight week schedules, eight week blocks, or shortly after that. And that didn't, because their classes were longer now during the day. It just, made it impossible for me to keep taking those. 00:10:26 Carlos Ramos: I was gonna say, I think they're in there from like 8 a. m. until 10 o'clock at night. 00:10:30 Brian McKeon: Right, because of their lectures and long labs, because it, who knew you can't bake a cake in five minutes. Their scheduling is such that they need those times, and it makes perfect sense for the program, it just doesn't work out for me to teach and make money. and, and teachings first, right? If I'm not doing my job, then it's a waste of time for me to be in class anyway in terms of the college's perspective. And that makes sense to me. So it's what fits my schedule. But I also, for some reason, when I was really young, I developed this idea that I could do anything that I, whatever I put my mind to, I could do. So there is a side of me that thinks, well, I want to see if I can do that. Well, I want to see if I can do that. And, So, so far I've been able to, well, I'm sure there'll be things I can't do, but I haven't found them yet. 00:11:17 Sumer Beatty: There's a good challenge. 00:11:18 Carlos Ramos: I think that's a fantastic mindset. 00:11:20 Sumer Beatty: Yes. 00:11:20 Carlos Ramos: I mean, barring any physical limitations that someone would have. I mean, the, and the brain has its own, but barring any of those limitations, I, yeah, it all comes down to mindset. 00:11:31 Brian McKeon: Yeah, so the Psychology now talks a lot about growth mindset. We used to think fixed. We used to think your intelligence is your intelligence. That's all you have. And you can't change it. But growth mindset now we know that the more you use it or lose it, right? From biology. So the more you use your brain, the better it is. And I like taking classes from different, Programs. One, I can relate to the students, but the connections, I cannot tell you. I've lost track of the number of times where I'd learn something in class. I'd then go and teach lecture because I'm usually, you know, in class one way or another and during lecture, something that I'd been learning in class reminds is, comes up in my mind as I'm talking about something. I can use that as a new analogy because I just learned it. So, the, it may come easier to me than others, I don't know, but I think anyone can learn anything. What varies is how much effort you have to put into it versus how much I put into it. That's, I think, what's different. Any of us can learn anything. I tell my students the only difference between me and them is that I've been doing it for my entire life, and they're a lot younger than I am. They can be me if they believe that they can be me. They won't be exactly me, but they can do it, and so I try to tell them that. 00:12:45 Carlos Ramos: Do you find as you get older it becomes, and you expand that knowledge and what you've learned, does it become easier to learn new things, or do you run up against age related learning deficiencies? 00:12:59 Brian McKeon: I haven't noticed any age related issues in terms of learning. Somewhat cheating, I guess. I've always been able to remember most of what I read the first time I read it, not necessarily verbatim, but certainly content and ideas. What I've found, though, is that taking the different classes has given me new perspectives, new angles, and so, yes, the more I study, the easier it becomes because, oh, this reminds me of this in biology. This reminds me of this in philosophy. This reminds me of the paralegal. Oh, we did this in food, in food class, the food 101 or whatever the number is. mise en place, everything in its place was one of the first things they teach you. And I use that in everything. If I'm going to do work on my car, if I'm going to get ready for class, if like... I like having my syllabi set for the semester and I work, I spend hours on syllabi, trying to get everything. What do I want to teach? When do I want to teach it? How am I going to fix what I did last time? Once I have the syllabus, mise en place, everything is placed, I can teach. It's not a big deal. I have no stress after that. I spend hours trying to figure out what I want in terms of my schedule of topics. So yeah, applying things from different topic areas, I think is fun. And I feel more well rounded in that sense. I don't want to be narrow minded. I like having a broader perspective. 00:14:23 Sumer Beatty: Have you been sitting in class or pursuing a subject area and thought, Oh, maybe I should do this. Maybe I should change my life's work to culinary or I mean, something else that you might be studying. 00:14:37 Brian McKeon: Yeah, I think that all the time. My dad was a high school English and math teacher, and he used to come home not in the best of moods, depending on students, so I never wanted to teach. I said that was the one thing I will never do, and that didn't last very long. So, for a long time, I didn't want to teach, because I wanted to explore the world, do other things, and I was worried about getting bored, which is probably one of the reasons why I try to teach as many classes on campus as well and take things, so I don't get bored. But, I was going to originally go to med school when I was an undergrad, but I held my first son and realized I'd never see him. So I just changed my mind on that one. And then, because I never wanted to teach, I always thought, Oh, maybe I'll do this. Oh, maybe I'll do this. And I get interested in it and I learn it quickly. And I'm like, Oh, that was fun. Well, maybe I'll try this. So I have those thoughts, but I think I like the challenge of learning something new. And once I learn it to a place where I'm competent, at least to some degree, then I get bored with that as a, like, that's not going to work for me as a full time job. So teaching actually is perfect for me at this college because I can take as many classes as I want and, and learn from different faculty. So I think ultimately, even though it wasn't my intention, I ended up in the perfect job. 00:15:59 Sumer Beatty: And you're not bored. 00:16:00 Brian McKeon: No, I try really hard not to be. I'm actually not very pleasant to be around when I'm bored. My mind, sort of eats me alive. It needs to be constantly working. And if I'm not physically doing something, my mind is constantly going. and then if I have no challenges ahead of me, I start to get irritable. You can ask my wife. 00:16:23 Sumer Beatty: That's great. 00:16:24 Carlos Ramos: How many courses that are on campus right now that you have not taken? 00:16:28 Brian McKeon: Probably a lot. I had to drop out of culinary because of the changes. I got into business administration for a while. I did the chemical dependency certificate. I had the paralegal degree. So right now I've only got 97 credits from Penn College in the time I've been here. So there's a lot I haven't taken. But again, block scheduling's a big deal. I was teaching the PA program for a while and I was, What I did there is I sat through all the classes so that I could always add in the molecular biology aspects of the medicine and the disease processes in addition to the classes I taught. So I, I thought about doing that. I was going to do the part time nursing program. When they started doing that in the evenings, it just, Life changes at home made it, not convenient at the moment, but I may eventually get back to that. So there's still a lot for me to do, thankfully. 00:17:19 Sumer Beatty: Did I see you were teaching an emergency management class too? 00:17:22 Brian McKeon: Yeah. So, as a molecular biologist and a microbiologist, I used to teach micro and gen bio here. And when the emergency management program first began being developed, Cliff Coppersmith was the dean at the time in my school. I actually was on the committee to help design the whole thing. And then bioterrorism was one of the courses we had to have. So I designed that, wrote it, because that's stuff that I've done. And so I just taught that for the first time this fall. We finally are up to that point. So, and I'll be doing it again this fall. 00:17:55 Sumer Beatty: You like that? That's engaging? 00:17:57 Brian McKeon: I would say, in the sciences, microbiology is my absolute favorite. That was my passion for a really long time, both with the HIV research and then teaching. So that's really, in the sciences, that's my favorite. I could do micro in my sleep, and so bioterrorism's great. And I also, when I first came here, I joined a fire company, so I became a volunteer fire, I was a firefighter and I went through all the training. I had interior one and two so I could fight fires and then I got into forestry and I did forest firefighting and I did forestry for a number of years. Life changes and then I had less time for it. But all of that to say, I had a, a lot of training in emergency management. I became an EMT. I was the fire company president for a few years. I was a lieutenant. And so I have sort of real world basic experience with emergency management. And then I'm a microbiologist. So I really enjoy that class because I get to combine both backgrounds. I wasn't just having to learn something new from scratch to teach it. I was actually, I have some experience in that. 00:19:02 Carlos Ramos: You know, I got in today with a lot of energy and now I'm feeling tired already. 00:19:08 Sumer Beatty: No, I think it's just exhausting. I was just imagining what your resume might look like. I know you've been here for quite some time, so you've probably not brushed up your resume, but I bet it'd be like 25 pages long. 00:19:20 Brian McKeon: No, because then people won't read it. So I just put the highlights. 00:19:24 Sumer Beatty: I would interview you just to meet you. Honestly, if I saw the resume, I'd be like, we just have to have him in to talk to him. I mean, there's something there for sure. 00:19:32 Brian McKeon: No, it's, I try to keep it short because no one likes to read past the first page. 00:19:36 Sumer Beatty: That's what they say, but I mean, I think yours would be pretty interesting. 00:19:40 Brian McKeon: It could be. There's 00:19:41 Sumer Beatty: not natural connections to most people from one to the next. 00:19:44 Brian McKeon: Yeah, that is true. I, most people tend to specialize in an area. They're interested in one area, they specialize in that area, and I think that's, that's natural. There's, something different about me, I guess. 00:19:55 Sumer Beatty: Well, I think you are in a unique advantage helping your children, you said you have children, determine what career path they're going to take because you come at it from all this. You have this background of all different specialties. Has that been helpful? I don't know how your, how old your children are, but I'm just thinking, Oh, from a parent perspective. 00:20:13 Brian McKeon: Sure. So, from my first marriage, we had four sons. I came, when I came here in 2005, my oldest was nine, and then I think I had six, five, and three. And, one of the things I liked about Penn College is they could take classes for free too. And so The three of them have graduated from here and are working semi related fields. They have various interests as well. My youngest is here now in automotive. He's 21, 22, something like that. So, that was pretty cool, but for me raising them, the mindset I've always had was that it's not do as I say, not as I do. It's me modeling the behaviors I wanted them to have. So I've never told them. They, none of them were required to go to college. I said, you can do what you want. I, you need to find your own path. I can't find it for you. But I tried to model the behaviors of, Hey, I work hard. Hey, you're never going to need anything as long as I'm able to work. So I'm going to provide for you. And this is how I think you should take care of a family. You know, I try to demonstrate those things. And even I have three step sons. And, and even with them, I try to do the same as much as possible. Try to, I was just talking to my youngest yesterday. He's like, how come when you cook, you do the dishes and when mom cooks, you do the dishes? And I said, well, I'm trying to show you that when you care for someone, you do your best to take care of them. And it's easy to do. And it's something I can do for her that she doesn't want to do. So I think modeling the behavior is the best way. They're sponges. That's the best way for them to learn. And you can tell them to your blue in the face, don't do that. But if you do it, they're going to do it. 00:21:58 Sumer Beatty: And there's some crossover into the classroom too. So I'm sure you have some students that are seeing your interest in all of these areas. And like you said, I can do it. So you can do it. 00:22:08 Brian McKeon: I try. Yeah. I start class that way. And When students feel like, Oh, this is too much work to do, or I don't have time to do this or that. I try to say, Hey, look, I'm still in class. I'm working full time and I'm still taking classes and I still have a family and I still have things to do at home. If I can do it, you can do it is what I try to tell them. But I try to model that behavior. And I've also enjoyed, you asked earlier, I like taking classes from other people I know. So I have taken classes specifically with people like Dr. Miller, for example, who teaches history and other things. And, and also, Professor Derr. I really, I had him in paralegal, but I've taken his business law classes and other things after that degree. I like interacting with people that I know and respect. I want to see how they teach. So yeah, I try to model that behavior. I think that's the best way to help other people, rather than telling them what to do, helping them find their way, but by modeling it. 00:23:07 Sumer Beatty: So, have you heard of the website RateMyProfessor? 00:23:10 Brian McKeon: I 00:23:10 Carlos Ramos: have. 00:23:11 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, so one of your popular tags is that you're hilarious. 00:23:14 Carlos Ramos: Oh, really? 00:23:14 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. Do you believe that? 00:23:19 Brian McKeon: I try. I'm fairly sarcastic, but again, I learned early on. I like being funny. Who doesn't? But I learned early on that being boring and dry does not really help students learn. So, when I first started teaching, I don't remember what I was reading, but I was reading up on teaching and different techniques. And, you know, forcing people to memorize things, isn't really the best. Instead, what you want to do is have context. And so I'm really interested in biology and automatic memories. There are events, I know exactly where I was when the planes hit the towers 9-11. And if you're old enough, you do, too, just like our parents said, I know where I was when JFK was shot. So, those automatic memories, if you've ever, remember high school where you had some song, I remember songs that were playing in high school at the time, and I, I haven't heard them in decades, but as soon as the song comes on randomly on the radio, I remember all these key events from that senior year. So I learned early on that automatic memories are really important, and so I try to make sure that every class has at least one automatic memory, something they can't forget because then when they're studying they can say, wait a minute, Oh, that's right. He stood up on the desk for this. And then that ties the, they help, helps them remember the lectures. At least that's my theory. No one's told me it doesn't help. But, so I try to have automatic memories and I think humor goes a long way with that. It's how you connect with people. 00:24:44 Sumer Beatty: Oh, they've remembered that. I saw somewhere, were you at the Community Arts Center, Community Theater League performing? 00:24:50 Brian McKeon: Yeah. 00:24:51 Sumer Beatty: So, I'm just drawing that connection from jumping onto the desk to jumping onto the stage. Yep. Are you still doing that or is that something that? 00:24:58 Brian McKeon: I haven't in, the last couple years. 00:25:00 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:25:00 Brian McKeon: It's about two years ago that I was in my last play. So I got into it. I was doing plays a lot. My teaching schedule then was more nights and I was department head in science for I guess about six years But that allowed me to do some things outside of a normal schedule. So I would actually build sets I worked for a year or two at the league building sets and then being in some of the plays and I think while I was there I've been in eight, ten plays, something like that. 00:25:31 Sumer Beatty: What's your favorite? 00:25:32 Brian McKeon: My favorite one was, the second one there is Bedside Manner. Marie Fox was the director. Keith Wagner was in it with me. And I like comedies. I like farces, particularly British farces. So, I had a lot of fun doing that and I like physical humor. So my character had good lines, but I spent a lot of time trying to think of things that would really Complete the picture. So for that one, my character's name was Jeff and he, he was quiet, mild mannered, that sort of thing, but sort of a little geeky, a little bit off. So I invented things for my character, like before, you know, the mistress, he's supposed to be, sleeping with it. He's, he's never done this before. You know, he's quickly vacuuming his hotel room right before she comes in or he comes out of the bathroom. I had toilet paper on my shoe by accident. I'm hopping around trying to get rid of it. So, I like those physical comedy types of things. I was asked to be Charlie Chaplin when the Genetti had their anniversary. So, I got to walk around as Charlie Chaplin. I didn't talk to anyone the whole time and, and that sort of thing. So, I had a lot of fun with that. So, I like the physical comedies. 00:26:44 Sumer Beatty: So is there a connection between the performance in the classroom and the performance on stage? 00:26:50 Brian McKeon: Sure. Classroom's all about performance. It's all about getting their attention, helping them make connections, helping them, see things in a different light. I think humor's a big part of that. I'm not afraid to make a fool of myself if necessary. My mouth is sometimes or most times faster than my brain. So some sarcastic comments may come out along the way. But it's, it's a performance in that sense. And so that's really helped me, not be afraid in class and not, you know, Not worry about public speaking or that sort of thing. It's acting. At least that's how I got into it. I'm much more comfortable now, but in the very beginning when I was nervous about, man, what do I do in the class? I quickly realized it was about acting. First semester I taught, I read notes off of my notes and I did not enjoy that at all. And so I said, that's it. I will never teach class again that way. And so I always memorize my notes before class and not verbatim, but you know, the content came easier over time, but I refuse to sit and read my notes or read off a PowerPoint. It just is not natural for me. 00:27:56 Sumer Beatty: And so that overcoming of fear is probably a reason why some people don't take the chance and try to learn something new or go into an area they're not familiar with. They're afraid of looking stupid, maybe. 00:28:08 Brian McKeon: Yeah, I think they are. In philosophy, I spent a lot of time studying epistemology, which is the study of knowledge, and ultimately we can't really know anything. We're finite, and we are gathering information from the world around us, but it's incomplete. We're biologically wired to take a couple pieces of information and make fast decisions. That's why we're alive. You can't get all of the information on wind speed and temperature and number of cars and pedestrians when you're trying to cross the street, so you just go with a couple quick things. Do I have enough time to run across? So this is interesting because on the one hand, because we're really good at that pattern recognition. We feel like we know stuff that we don't, right? If I asked you how a flashlight worked, you could probably tell me the basics. But if I start asking you more details, it's in psychology, it's called the illusion of explanatory depth. We feel like we understand things that we don't really understand. Or if I ask you, do you know anything about a car? Oh, yeah, I can put gas in. I know how to change my oil. Do you understand how the ignition system works? The electrical system? We don't understand those things. We feel like, Oh, I can, I can tell you about cars, but we can't unless we've studied that. And so what's interesting to me is that we feel like we should know stuff because our brains are wired for that and pattern recognition. We, we make quick decisions, but we also at the same time recognize there's a lot we don't know. And that makes us nervous because when you don't know something biologically, that's a threat to your survival. And we generally try to avoid threats to our survival. And so I think that's why students get nervous. But I think if I can encourage them to take on new challenges, learn new things, say, Hey, look, I'm not asking you to do something I haven't done. I'm still learning. If I can move them past that fear of not knowing and help them realize, look, none of us know anything, to be honest with you. The information we have is what we currently know...