Ruth Hocker and Zachary Hepler: Civil Engineering Today & Tomorrow

00:00:00 Sumer Beatty and Carlos Ramos: Welcome to Tomorrow Makers, where we explore how we learn, live, work, and play, now and in the future. I'm Summer Beaty. And I'm Carlos Ramos. Welcome! I don't know if that doubling up works. Let us know what you think. It might've been too weird. Maybe we need to rerecord it. 00:00:28 Carlos Ramos: But you know what it's all about having fun here. Yes, fun. While we're learning how to explore, how to live, 00:00:36 Sumer Beatty: learn, play, all those things. Oh, yes. . So we're at Penn College and we are here with Ruth Hawker and, uh, Zachary Heppler, civil Engineering faculty and student duo. 00:00:49 Carlos Ramos: This was a really great one 'cause I, I had not met. I've seen her around campus, uh, but I hadn't met Ruth and I hadn't met Zach, uh, and so, uh, to get a chance to meet some new people and learn some new things, uh, especially about civil engineering, because it's, it's kind of, it's tucked in the program is located in the, in a, in a back obscure. of a building that is not one that I, I got going a lot. Um, and I, and I don't, I don't mean back and obscure in a, in a, in a bad way. It's a 00:01:25 Sumer Beatty: beautiful building. 00:01:28 Carlos Ramos: And the location is fantastic. Um, if you can find it, cause it's just this meandering maze through, uh, the college Avenue labs building. Uh, which is, it's, it's got some amazing programs in it, so it's just one of these many programs, and I don't get over there as often as I should. 00:01:47 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, it's such a great building. And similar to its obscuredness in the building, I feel like civil engineering as a career field, too, I learned so much about. I can't believe Ruth has worked. It seems like everywhere. I mean, she's done it all 00:02:01 Carlos Ramos: and done some really fun things. 00:02:04 Sumer Beatty: Yes. The travel, that part was my favorite for sure. 00:02:08 Carlos Ramos: Absolutely. 00:02:08 Sumer Beatty: The Kenyan. We don't want to tell you too much. Yeah. We'll get into it. 00:02:18 Carlos Ramos: So Summer, who are we talking with today? 00:02:21 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. So we are with Ruth Hawker. She is an instructor in our civil engineering program. And Zachary Hepler, who is one of her students. 00:02:30 Zachary Hepler: Hello. 00:02:31 Ruth Hocker: Hi, nice to be here. 00:02:32 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, welcome. 00:02:33 Zachary Hepler: Ms. Hawker, for our listeners, can you, uh, go into more detail about civil engineering? 00:02:39 Ruth Hocker: Sure. This is one of my favorite things to talk about, like, for new students and their parents who come in for open houses, because some folks are, you know, if they think of an engineer, they think about a railroad train or a conductor on a train, and they're like, oh, is that what you do? And no, it's, it's not. Um, so I like to tell folks that civil engineering, uh, and civil engineers, Make the world a better place. We make the world a safer, we make it cleaner, and we make it better for everyone who use it. Um, so we do all sorts of things like design and construction and maintenance of all things in the built environment. And by built environment, I mean roadways. railways, bridges, levees, dams, pipelines, um, and even some of the water and wastewater treatment systems. Those things that nobody likes to think about that we all take for granted. Um, but that's what civil engineers work on. And again, our goal is to make the world a safer, cleaner place for everyone to enjoy. 00:03:32 Carlos Ramos: Wow. So you're touching every part of our lives. 00:03:36 Ruth Hocker: Pretty much. Civil engineering is the, the unseen, unsung hero. of all things that make modern life very comfortable. Wow. Yeah. 00:03:47 Carlos Ramos: As our listeners know by now, I'm just going to get right out in the open there. 00:03:52 Sumer Beatty: He's going to say the B word. 00:03:54 Carlos Ramos: Actually, I was going to go with the R word. 00:03:56 Ruth Hocker: Oh, okay. Now I'm afraid. 00:03:59 Carlos Ramos: We'll bring them both out and then maybe we won't mention them again. So, you know, when we're outdoors and running, trail running, trail, mountain biking, whatever it is, you think. that you're out there away from this, but correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like there's, it's closer than we think. 00:04:20 Ruth Hocker: So I can say that civil engineers are also employed at agencies like the U. S. Forest Service, the National Park Service. Um, the Pennsylvania DCNR, all of those bridges that you might cross on your trail runs, especially if you're up in Tiedot and State Forest, which is my neck of the woods, are gonna have a structural component that was designed by a civil engineer. So we are everywhere, whether you know it or not. Wow, no getting away from it. Nope. Nope. And that lends itself to a lot of fun in the profession, too, because not every engineer gets stuck behind a desk doing drafting or doing all the maths. Um, some of us spend a lot of time out in the field doing a lot of really fun things that benefit a lot of people. 00:05:02 Sumer Beatty: That's really cool. So, you have experience in all different sectors. Is there anything that, You want to talk about that, you know, when you said I, you know, they're not just behind the desk. What have you done that our listeners might be surprised about or that just might be fun to talk about? Like I never thought a civil engineer would do blank. 00:05:22 Ruth Hocker: So I would have to say that my career trajectory has probably not been typical of most of my peers that I graduated with. Okay, that's okay. Many of them picked a sector, um, sometimes it's private consulting, sometimes it's government, and they have stayed there for the entirety of their career. Um, I tend to be a little more adventurous. Um, pre COVID, I was on a mission to visit all seven continents. I didn't quite get there. I got to five. Um, but I would say that, um, Wait, I forget what the question was. 00:05:53 Sumer Beatty: I like the content, the seven continents. So why that? Is it through work or is it just for fun, just a goal? 00:06:00 Ruth Hocker: So it was just a goal. Okay. I've loved traveling. Um, and part of my role as a civil engineer was to travel and teach folks in other countries what I had done, what programs I had run and was successful with. Um, prior to coming on board with the college. I had worked for a non profit agency based in Maryland, um, I had been there for about a year and a half, um, and due to some COVID related family changes, had to relocate out of the area, but before that I was with the City of Lancaster for six years, and I was their, uh, Deputy Director of Public Works, responsible for the environment and sustainability. And we built, um, I say we because no engineer takes sole responsibility for anything, but I and my team and my supervisors and our mayor and our elected officials down there built a national program, um, of green infrastructure using nature based solutions to help achieve water volume reductions, um, to help benefit and meet our federal permit requirements. And it's through building that program, I was actually invited to speak at a number of conferences in places like Prague, I was invited to speak in Sydney, Australia, um, and through my professional, uh, membership in organizations like the American Society of Civil Engineers. I was invited to go to China and meet with officials and local government representatives there about their initiatives to build sponge cities, which is basically the same thing we had been doing in the city of Lancaster, managing stormwater volume with nature based solutions and green infrastructure. Wow. It was a lot of fun. 00:07:35 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. So seeing other cultures and their practices, is there anything you brought back with you? 00:07:41 Ruth Hocker: An incredible amount of humility. Okay. Um, the biggest takeaway for me, for my trip to China, honestly, was that, that very humbling experience of putting myself solely in the responsibility of another person. I had no idea what to do with the language. I had no idea where to go. I was terrified of doing something culturally or politically wrong. Um, and having someone that accompanied me through that trip that I had only met three days prior, Um, was, was very helpful, but it was very humbling. Um, but I will say that the hospitality that I've experienced, regardless of which country I'm in, has just been amazing. Um, and if I dare say, I think Americans have a, a bit of work to do in terms of our, our hospitality traits. Not all of us, just some of us. 00:08:36 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, I was wondering, was there anything professionally related to civil engineering that you brought back? I love the other aspect though, too. 00:08:44 Ruth Hocker: So that's a, that's a great question. Um, and, and yes, there are some amazing things that are happening in places like Europe and Australia. Australia specifically, um, they're, they tend to have a very droughty environment. Most of their populations are living along the seashores. So they've made heavy investments in things like desalination to provide potable drinking water for their... Um, for their residents and their citizens, and that's something that we haven't really explored here much, but in light of the fact that the Mississippi River is currently running at historically low levels, and there's a risk of salt water moving farther up the river valley, um, that's quickly becoming part of the conversation. It hasn't been historically cost effective here, but it's, it's something that we could certainly learn from the Australians, um, because they've been doing it for so long. You were 00:09:33 Zachary Hepler: talking about, um, some... Nature based solutions to helping and conserving the environment while also providing services to cities and towns. So, yeah, what are, what's like an example of that? Like, I've heard of green roofs and like other stuff, so. 00:09:50 Ruth Hocker: So green roofs are a great example of a green infrastructure or a nature inspired solution. Um, and that's literally when you grow a garden on the roof of your building. 00:10:01 Carlos Ramos: That's not the moss that's growing on my roof tiles, right? 00:10:05 Ruth Hocker: Well, technically it makes it green, but there's a little bit more to it than that. Um, so usually there's a layer of soil as well as a water containment layer. Um, and then some selected plants that actually go up there and are designed, or selected rather, to handle both wet... Um, usually what I've seen here in Pennsylvania and parts of the Mid Atlantic have been sedums, which are very small succulent plants that can handle being both really wet and really dry. Um, greeners haven't really caught on here to the extent that they have in Europe, so that's another kind of, you know, competitive goal, if you will. Um, but they do tend to be expensive, um, they do add some cost to the construction of the building, um, and not a lot of people are going to look at the long term cost benefits of the energy reduction or heating and cooling costs that are associated with implementing a green roof. So a lot of what, um, excuse me, a lot of the implementation that we did. As far as a nature based or a nature inspired solution was to do things like incorporate rain gardens into traffic control devices like curbed bump outs or, uh, boulevard median planting areas. Um, we also got to do quite a bit down there on, um, rehabilitating detention basins. So if you look around some of the places in Williamsport. Almost anywhere you go, um, I like to pick on banks a lot because they tend to have these large stormwater basins, which are basically big, for the most part, dry holes in the ground, that they mow down to within an inch of their lives every summer, and there's never a drop of water in it. And then when it rains, it fills up and all the water leaves anyway, so what benefit does that have other than... Just delaying the inevitable, right? And that does have a benefit, you know, there is a benefit in slowing the water down. But there's an even greater benefit if you can allow that water to infiltrate through the soil column. And if you can do that by incorporating some additional plants, instead of just having a grassy hole in the ground, you can increase your volumetric. So you can improve the amount of water that gets sent back to the groundwater table every day or every time it rains. Um, and with the plants, you can also provide habitat for things like migratory species, birds, butterflies, pollinators, and things like that. Um, and those all have a benefit, not just to the infrastructure that we as civil engineers design, and not only to the nature. You know, the animals and the bugs and the bunnies that are going to use it. Um, but there's also a human benefit to that. It's been shown that, that, um, incorporating things like that in your property can actually increase property values. Um, and it can also reduce, with a large enough implementation, things like asthma and other, uh, detrimental, you know, public health concerns that come with living in urbanized areas. So those are just a few examples. 00:12:53 Carlos Ramos: It's really interesting too, because you think, if you get off trail, or even when you're on trails, um, even on a dry day, you rarely leave the trail dry. There's some wet, marshy area that you've gotten to. Or some puddles that are collecting. And I think we, what you're describing is kind of thinking about restoring at least some of that in an urban environment where it probably, it was probably much more widespread before the development. 00:13:22 Ruth Hocker: Absolutely. So if you think about what, what did Williamsport look like 150 years ago? Do you have any idea what it looked like? There's no pictures. 00:13:35 Carlos Ramos: Now, I'm trying to think of the, yeah, the buildings that I know were built at that time. Like, my neighborhood was not there. 00:13:42 Ruth Hocker: It was vastly different than it is today. And that's the case with every city in the U. S. Um, I'm going to pick again on Lancaster a little bit because I spent so much time there. But they were, they were incorporated in 1729. They were a city in 1729. When William Penn was deeded that part, or the property that Lancaster City was built on, it was a large wooded area. There were lots of springs, there were lots of small streams, lots of things that now no longer exist, at least where we can see them. So there's a lot of that that still exists underground, even here in Williamsport and across places like Lancaster City, Philadelphia, New York even. So that the intent is... not to bring back those existing conditions, right? We're way beyond that. But to the extent that we can incorporate some of those natural, um, natural projects, natural benefits into the otherwise large and robust engineering projects that we have to do anyway to accommodate additional cars on the road, additional people on the sidewalks, additional housing needs, um, we can help build that balance to go back and find our way so that we're not just completely paving everything that we have and shipping everything to the nearest waterway. We're actually going to give it an opportunity to create some of those little pocket areas. Um, maybe even pocket wetlands depending on the soil's conditions. Um, but yeah, it's a, it's a great way to bring nature back into the cities. 00:15:19 Carlos Ramos: And, and so, uh, a great opportunity for students like Zach to, um, you know, kind of make an environment that we, uh, can, can enjoy all the modern benefits of while still staying connected to, uh, our natural side. 00:15:37 Zachary Hepler: Mm hmm. Yeah, um, my call, uh. A little off engineering or civil engineering. Um, I took an architecture class, uh, last semester here at Penn College and I started, well, the architecture students showed me all this like new stuff that they're trying to make, like, so to a company for water levels rising around, you know, the continents and the icebergs melt and all that stuff. Um, they're trying to, Not design, but try to, like, dream up or like, yeah, I guess design, um, new floating structures that can, that will have, like, communities and cities and stuff on top of so people will be able to still, like, we won't lose as much land. Um, and yeah, we, uh, talked a lot about green roofs in architecture area and, um, like underneath bridges and stuff where like the green walls and stuff and we used to talk all about that. 00:16:32 Carlos Ramos: It's, it's great that you get that opportunity to, uh, not only take those in major classes, um, but also to be able to, uh, take a cross disciplinary approach to go to the architecture major and say, Oh, let me take this and add this to the learning that I've got for my, my civil engineering. Is that common amongst the, the student population that, that we get that to architecture or the, or other areas? 00:17:04 Ruth Hocker: So I'm still pretty new to the college. Um, I don't know to what extent that it's common. Um, but I would definitely say that it's something that I encourage, um, and I'm, I'm so happy that Zach took that class because there's, engineers don't work in a bubble. Whether you're a civil engineer, mechanical engineer, or other, we're just not going to work in a bubble no matter what we'd like to do. Civil engineers have the opportunity to really make an incredibly, like, exponentially larger change in our world if they learn to coordinate and collaborate with folks like architects, landscape architects, contractors, all of them. Um, and one of the things that I always tell my students is you might think you know everything, but there's always something left to be learned. And the only way that we're going to do that is by working with other professions because there's a, the architects, the architecture program here is amazing. They have incorporated so many sustainability considerations and impacts, um, and uh, aspects into the course work, that it's amazing. Um, and I'm a little envious and hope to do the same as well, Um, But in, in, in the To the same extent that they're looking at some of the larger societal issues. Um. The ASCE, the American Society of Civil Engineers, is also working to develop our younger members and recent graduates to think about a future world vision and what that looks like, and that includes some of those components that Zach was exposed to in the architectural program and thinking about floating cities. Is that a viable option? Could it be done? What would it look like? And ASCE is bringing engineers and architects and contractors to the table to think about what that looks like and build that at least in the virtual world to begin with. So it's a wonderful opportunity and I think Penn College really sets us, those types of opportunities set Penn College apart. 00:18:56 Sumer Beatty: Wow, I never thought about floating cities until just now. Now I want to see a photo of what does that look like. 00:19:03 Zachary Hepler: Yeah, neither did I until one architecture student, he brought it up as like a presentation that this is a thing that we're going to have to either think about or possibly implement into our future society. 00:19:17 Sumer Beatty: Wow. 00:19:19 Carlos Ramos: Now, did you do any, uh, any project work, uh, in that, that realm or? 00:19:23 Zachary Hepler: Yeah. Um, I, so with a civil engineering background, I kind of took it as through that standpoint. So I was like, I guess I was the, uh, not really the super boring one, but like, but everyone else around me was like, you know, we never really thought of that. And I was like, well, I didn't really think about what you guys are thinking about either. You know, um, but yeah, um, we, I did a project on, I think it had to do with structural stuff, uh, instead of like, just like how a design of a building should look. Like, I went into the structural analysis of the building and like, showed them, like, ok, like, when you guys want to build, like, when you guys want to build this and I have to, like, look at it and try to make your dream come true. Um, yeah. That's just, yeah. 00:20:11 Sumer Beatty: So you were saying no a lot, is that right? 00:20:15 Zachary Hepler: Sometimes I was saying yes, sometimes I was saying no. It all depended. 00:20:19 Sumer Beatty: So they're artistic and they have these grand ideas and you, you say, well, actually, you have to think about this and you need to consider that. 00:20:26 Zachary Hepler: Yeah, like, yeah, you, yeah. Um, but like, I would be like, I'm, I would be super flexible with them. Like I, like, you know, like that could work, like that could physically work, like the floating cities. Um, I don't know if we have the current technology for it right now or like developed there anyway, but it could theoretically work. Like we, you'd have to make different building materials and you need. Uh, a way to keep them all stable and like be able to take on tidal waves and all that stuff and like prepare people for that, like, you know, but yeah. 00:20:57 Sumer Beatty: Wow. 00:20:58 Carlos Ramos: I'd love to get hands on some of those visuals. If you have some that you're willing to share, if you can talk to some of those, uh, students and see if maybe we could, you know, share those in our, our show notes. Cause I, I think, uh, giving the listeners that, that visual to kind of see what you guys are. I'm seeing for the year 2050, I mean, that's right around the corner, isn't it? Yeah, basically. 00:21:25 Zachary Hepler: Definitely closer than, uh, 20... 2000. 00:21:29 Sumer Beatty: Wow. So with this changing landscape, how do civil engineers continuously stay ahead and think forward? Over and over again. I'm just, that's a hefty job. 00:21:42 Ruth Hocker: It is. And I'll, I'll, I'll let you in on a little bit of a secret. Um, civil engineers are a little bit nerdy. Um, at least I am anyway. I can't really speak for Zach. No, me too. . We, at least a little and proud of it. I am very proud of being a nerd. I'll admit it. Um, but we also tend to be very passionate about whichever discipline we get into. Um, I, I, I know that there's students that are still determining which discipline they're really passionate about, but some of them who've already made those decisions, you can just, you can see the joy and excitement in their eyes when they're looking at things like concrete design and steel beams, which makes my eyes glaze over because I'm not a structural person. Um, but we tend to be very excited and very passionate about the work that we do. Um, so, it, it just comes naturally. Um, I'm, I'm married to a pastor who has, he's very interested in meteorology and he did some city planning, but if I start talking about hydrology or traffic studies, his eyes just fall shut and he'd just forget it. Don't even bother. Um, so largely when he's doing his thing, I'm actively just looking through different news articles, different, um, different stories, different podcasts. Just to learn about what some of the new technologies are that are out there. Um, and I also talk a lot with my, my colleagues, whether they're engineers or architects or landscape architects. Um, and even my friends in industry, I still keep in contact with them just to see what they're doing and what they're, they're up to, uh, what they're up to. One of the things about being a professional, um, well, being a professional. One of the things about being a professional is that we are required to continue education. So every two years I have to apply to renew my license. Um, and every two years I have to have a minimum of 24 continuing education credits related to civil engineering. So I can't just take a business development course about, you know, how to build your online presence. That doesn't count. I actually have to have some technical content. Um, that doesn't kick in until you get your professional license. I think the nature of how quickly technology is changing and how quickly we are as a society moving towards more sustainable and resilient materials and more comp cost or cost effective, um, projects. It's, it's in everyone's best interest to sort of stay involved and stay on top of what's happening. And I think to Zach's point, I think it's your collaboration with architecture students has, I mean, that's got it. That sets you so far ahead because you've at least had those conversations with some of the folks you might meet in the industry and you're not afraid to say no, but you're also not afraid to say, well, I didn't think about it that way. And those are the collaborations that I've learned the most from. Um, and that's where we can really push the envelope and make really big change. 00:24:35 Carlos Ramos: Zach, have you been able to parlay that into some, uh, interesting internship opportunities? Are you looking at employers? Um, we're just coming up of a career fair today, a two day career fair here at the college with like, what, is it 300 employers? I'll have to get the right number. I really should know that off the top of my head. It's a lot. 00:24:59 Sumer Beatty: We'll say And there are a lot of really smart dressed people walking around on campus today. Yeah, yeah. There were some sharp people walking around. I was like, like, wow, everybody looks so good. 00:25:08 Zachary Hepler: Some people walking around with suits. I'm like, uh, yes, I'm . You weren't wearing a suit today? No, I can't. Um, I don't carry a suit on me around . No. It's for special occasions. . 00:25:19 Carlos Ramos: So what, what, what has that looked like for you, for your interaction with the in. 00:25:24 Zachary Hepler: Um, I've mainly worked for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania so far. Um, I haven't really gotten out to, um, I guess private owned companies. I haven't, uh, gotten around to them mainly because I Um, I, I wanted to, initially I wanted to work for the state cause I was like looking at all the benefits and all that stuff and, um, that's good and all, but like, I don't know if that'll change, uh, soon because the state, I'm not gonna lie, it's kind of slow, like they, like they have a slow roll and like it's really nice, easily paced to keep up with, but like it, That's not really a great way of, like, keeping on your toes and, like, learning, like, very much. So I might, uh, I was looking at Larson Design Group. Uh, they're pretty cool. I was gonna go over to them and try land development with them and then if, see how that, like, all levels out and then go. If that doesn't work, I might actually do what you enjoy doing, uh, wastewater and water environmental stuff. Um, which... Actually does pique my interest and then probably go maybe try out concrete as well before I go for my PE. So, yeah. 00:26:39 Sumer Beatty: Okay, and what is PE? Professional? 00:26:41 Zachary Hepler: Professional, uh, engineering license, basically. Okay, nice. Um, so, yeah. Actually, do you want to talk about, um, Ms. Hager, do you want to talk about, uh, Why you enjoy wastewater and water environmental stuff so much. 00:26:54 Ruth Hocker: Sure. I can talk about that forever. So I'm going to put my nerd hat on. Now, I grew up on a small farm in rural Columbia County. And it was a farm that had been in one family's ownership since the early 1800s, I think. And the farmer who owned it before my parents bought it had, um, had actually created an earthen embankment to impound water from a spring that was actually at the headwaters, one of the headwaters of Briar Creek. And that pond was about an acre, an acre and area, and it was just full of the best fishing and swimming and all of those things. And in the spring, Um, it would actually flow through a little creek valley through the back of our, our wooded, uh, the wooded area of the property that I grew up on, and I spent a lot of my, um, misspent youth sitting on a dock in that pond fishing, um, watching the raccoons come in and eat the freshwater mussels that were there when the water levels dropped, watching the pond respond to Um, warm weather and cool weather in terms of algae blooms, watching the turtles and the frogs. Um, and it was just, it was such a part of who I was, um, and a part of my life that I really wanted to, I wanted to make sure that everybody had the opportunity to at least experience clean water to the extent that I could. Um, Even though I grew up in that little headwater area, I was definitely part of the Susquehanna River Valley, and I've been a river rat since the day I was born. As I started into my engineering career, I realized that some of the things that we've done, not just, not just as a society, but as civil engineers, you know, some of the things that were 100, 150 years ago, have really caused some significant challenges for the civil engineers of today. And I thought, well, why not try to make a difference? Um, and that led me into so many different positions with so many different types of organizations. Um, Zachary was talking about trying out different, different levels of employment, you know, whether it's with the state or with a private consulting firm, you name it, I've probably worked for that organization. Um, and my goal has always been to make the biggest impact that I can to ensure clean water for everybody in the future. 00:29:15 Sumer Beatty: So, um, what, what made you come into teaching? I heard that word impact making the biggest impact, and that seems like a natural progression to teaching, but I don't want to answer the question I just asked for you. 00:29:26 Ruth Hocker: So. No. And, and I wish I could say that it was a conscious decision to, you know, make the move into teaching because I wanted to make an impact. But truth be told COVID just kind of threw everything up in the air for me. Um, I should clarify, um, so my husband is from Lancaster originally, but he went to college in Lock Haven and fell in love with the woods. He's not a trail runner, but he is an avid hiker and a hunter and fisher person. And when the, when, when COVID hit, he was about four months from retirement. And he said, I don't want to stay here in Lancaster after I retire. And I said, well, okay, well, where do you want to go? He said, let's go to Lock Haven. 00:30:14 Sumer Beatty: He just brought that up four months in advance. 00:30:18 Ruth Hocker: We talked about it for a while, but it wasn't, to me, it wasn't like the urgency wasn't there. Right. Um, and I'm pretty sure if I remember it correctly, and if he hears this, he's probably going to like have a hissy fit, but that's okay. I think we had our first real conversation about it probably in, January, just to explore the options. Um, by the time August September rolled around, we were actively looking at packing up the house and moving. And by the end of December, we had moved. Everything kind of works out well for us, and everything worked out for a reason. Um, I had left the city of Lancaster to take a position with a non profit, the Center for Watershed Protection. Um, and I was working as the Pennsylvania director there, so I was able to, to move, you know, my physical location while still maintaining an office presence, and I was with them for almost a year and a half, um, and it was wonderful work. The people that I worked with were amazing, and we were really, we were really having an impact. Um, but the work was centered predominantly on the southern part of the Chesapeake Bay or I'm sorry, the southern part of the Susquehanna River and the Chesapeake Bay and largely in the Delaware River Basin. Um, so I was, I was a little bit physically removed from it. Um, and the, the travel time to go to meetings as COVID started to, to roll back, um, was really starting to become a little bit onerous and I didn't have that work life balance that I wanted. Penn College. I had, I, I I, this is where I got my start. I mean, I graduated from Penn College where I got my bachelor's degree. And when I saw the job posting for a civil instructor with an emphasis in, in land and water resources, I think the first thing I did was just stop, take a deep breath and take a double look at my computer screen. 'Cause I could not believe what I was seeing and I had to do a reality check. So I, I called my husband and I said, do you, do you see this? I said, what do you, what do you think? He's like, you should do it. You should totally do it. And I was like, and I think it took me about three minutes of serious thought before I'd actually started, you know, putting my application materials together and hitting submit. And I think, I think I'd always wanted to teach, but I wasn't sure in what capacity. I'd spent some time doing adjunct instruction at places like Penn State, Harrisburg and Harrisburg Area Community College, and it was always rewarding to work with the students. Like, that was just the biggest benefit for me. And again, when the opportunity came up to, to join Penn College full time, I was just, I couldn't say no. I had no idea if I had what it took. I had no idea what they were going to think of me. I had no idea of anything, but I just knew I had to take a shot. So I did, and here I am. 00:33:12 Sumer Beatty: Oh, that's great. We're so happy to have you. 00:33:14 Ruth Hocker: I am incredibly happy to be here. And I will say that it, being with the students and seeing, seeing their interactions and their reactions and sharing their experiences is just an amazing part of the job. It really is. Nice. 00:33:27 Carlos Ramos: So what does that every day look like, um, between you and the students in the, in the program? Because I'm, I'm sure a lot of us are like, okay, yeah, we can picture the bridges, we can, uh, picture the, the dams and all the other waterway treatment, but, I mean, how... I teach that in the classroom, in the lab, what are we doing there? 00:33:49 Ruth Hocker: Well Zach, I'm going to ask you to keep me honest here, but it's a lot of math. 00:33:52 Zachary Hepler: Yeah, that's true. 00:33:55 Ruth Hocker: Um, it's a lot of textbook learning. But it's also a lot of hands on learning. Um, and one of the things that I like to do with the students is to the extent that I can use the campus as a living laboratory. Um, so right now I have, I have Zach for, uh, Civil Engineering, Construction, Estimating, and Scheduling. Um, and that's, that's a necessary, um, course because there are components of the Estimating and Scheduling. Um, Curriculum on the Fundamentals of Engineering exam, which is part one of the two part exam to become a professional engineer. Um, and in order to get them some sense of what it might be like to go out and give an estimate to a client for an actual construction job, I had them go out and actually measure the amount of curb. in the Kyle parking lot on the west side of the building. 00:34:45 Zachary Hepler: Yeah, It was raining that day. 00:34:48 Ruth Hocker: Rain or shine, civil engineers are going to be out there. So are contractors. 00:34:51 Zachary Hepler: Like the mail, rain, snow or hail, it's got to go. 00:34:57 Ruth Hocker: So I had them go out and actually measure the curb. Um, and then determine what the quantities were, look up the cost associated with it, and actually provide a quote back to me as though I were the client who was going to pay for those curbs. Um, in some of my other classes, we do a lot of water quality discussions. We'll talk about things like sediment, nitrogen, and phosphorus. There's big three pollutants in the Chesapeake Bay, um, and we'll do samples. We'll go out to Lycoming Creek, or we'll go over to the river at Maynard Street, and we'll take samples just to see how is it behaving? What does it look like? Um, and I try to do that at least once a month, and we've gotten some really interesting data so far. Uh, most recently I had our first year students out to do some initial sampling right after it had rained. And surprise, maybe not, um, the water quality was a little bit better, right? There was more water flowing through the river, any of those pollutants were a little bit more diluted. Then we'll go back out again at the end of the month, and we'll see if it's changed, and we'll start looking for trends. Um, we'll also do some soil analysis. You know, how healthy is the soil on campus? Are there opportunities where the campus, or where the college might be able to incorporate some of those nature based solutions to help meet their permitting requirements for environmental permits and things like that? So it's a lot of fun and the opportunities are endless. 00:36:11 Sumer Beatty: That's really cool. I was thinking selfishly. Wow. Um, so could you test my soil at home? Because I have a heck of a time growing a garden. 00:36:18 Ruth Hocker: Yes, absolutely. We could. You bring in a sample. I will have the students test it. We can talk about that. 00:36:24 Sumer Beatty: But maybe I will. That might be fun. 00:36:27 Ruth Hocker: Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, to the extent that, that I can. At least break up the, the lectures and the, the, the slides and the math, um, with real world applications. And, and I'll have them use tools that they'll see in industry. So, if they're going to use a flow meter, it's going to be similar to the one that they've used in my classes. If they're going to take water quality samples, the kits are going to be the same that they used here in class. If they're going to look at soil compaction. They're going to use the same tools that they used in class, um, and to that extent, it, it makes me feel like I might be making a slightly bigger impact on some of the, a slightly bigger impact than some of the other instructors at some of the other universities that don't have that hands on application. 00:37:11 Sumer Beatty: Right. Yeah, we always see you across campus, not you specifically. I mean, maybe you're in there, but there's always, I love seeing the students on campus working and you know, they're getting the lessons and they're not in the classroom. And I think that's what everybody, everybody loves a break from the textbooks. 00:37:28 Ruth Hocker: Especially when it's nice outside and not 10, 10 degrees below or pouring. And it wasn't pouring when we went out. 00:37:34 Zachary Hepler: No, it wasn't. 00:37:35 Ruth Hocker: It was a light rain. Yeah, it was a light drizzle the whole time. 00:37:38 Carlos Ramos: But today when it was 70 some degrees, we're inside or outside. 00:37:42 Zachary Hepler: Yeah, we were inside today. But that was also because, um. 00:37:45 Carlos Ramos: Don't get spoiled. 00:37:50 Zachary Hepler: That was also because, uh, uh, she gave us an assignment today to calculate the labor costs of, uh, carpenters and, uh, laborers for a job site and, like, how much annually it would cost to have them work on a job site for, I think we went up to a year and then, like, the final, uh, our final, uh, value that we needed to find was how much per week is, like, the crew costing the job or business or, the, uh, owner, 00:38:19 Ruth Hocker: it's all things that you'll use on the job or could potentially use on the job. So even though we were stuck inside in the, in the dark, dismal, no Windows classroom 00:38:29 Zachary Hepler: Yeah. 00:38:29 Ruth Hocker: Of our computer lab. 00:38:30 Zachary Hepler: That one does not have any Windows . 00:38:33 Ruth Hocker: We did get some real world, real world application out of it. Mm-hmm. 00:38:36 Sumer Beatty: Nice. 00:38:38 Zachary Hepler: I did see on this paper, there's a question, um, that I think you might've told us, but I can't remember. Um, you did, you did some volunteer work in Kenya. Um, 00:38:47 Ruth Hocker: yep. 00:38:47 Zachary Hepler: Do you want to tell us about that? 00:38:49 Ruth Hocker: So that was another one of those once in a lifetime opportunity type things. Um, through my involvement with the American Society of Civil Engineers, I was introduced to a gentleman who was representing a volunteer organization. They're almost, um, I don't know if, I'm not even going to say it, so just forget it. Through my work with the American Society of Civil Engineers, I was actually at a conference, um, in Miami. Gosh, I'm not even sure when it was. Um, but I was introduced to a gentleman who, um, sees an, or who oversees, um, an organization called Engineering Ministries International. Um, and they're a faith based non profit that works with civil engineers and architects and electrical engineers and others, um, to help non governmental organizations or NGOs across the world to do things like master plans, um, for hospital campuses, for schools, for, you know, anything that's going to help a, um, a public community. And they were looking for a civil water resources engineer to help them out with a hospital campus in a little town called Kapswar, Kenya. Um, you mentioned trail running. I'm assuming you're a runner and you're, you're aware of where most of the world's marathon athletes come from, Carl...? Okay. 00:40:05 Carlos Ramos: Yeah. 00:40:06 Ruth Hocker: So, have you ever been to Iten? 00:40:08 Carlos Ramos: I have not. 00:40:09 Ruth Hocker: Okay. I have. 00:40:10 Sumer Beatty: Oh, wow. 00:40:11 Ruth Hocker: It's, I got to drive through Iten in Kenya on my way to Kapsowar. Um, so we actually flew into Nairobi, um, took a very small jumper plane, um, to an airport just south of E10. And then it was another four hours, um, in a little, um, uh, what are they? Oh yeah, it was a Range Rover. Another four hours in a Range Rover or a Land Rover. Um, From this little airport through Iten up to the West Rift, or the western side of the Great Rift Valley, which is where this hospital campus was located. And when we got there, um, it was a, it was the only hospital, and I don't even know how far, it was the only hospital in the region, um, and they were full service. So they had a men's ward, they had a women's ward, they had a children's ward, and if there were any sort of major accidents, um, illnesses, fighting, anything that involved injuries, they would come there. They had a fully functioning operating theater, they had one surgeon who was stationed there full time, and they were in desperate need of some upgrades. They didn't have good drainage across the campus, so when they would come through their rainy season, things would get stuck in the, in the, uh, in the gutters and in the mud of the, the walkways. They didn't have a fully functioning wastewater system, um, for the hospital. For the staff's houses or for the nursing school, which was training about 300 students every year. So that was only one part of the problem, but that was my part of the problem, . So I was part of a team of architects and mechanical engineers, um, and, um, architects, mechanical engineers. and other specialists, um, who developed a, a master plan for this campus so that they could go seek funding from other organizations. So I spent three weeks with them on their campus. Um, we did a full analysis, we did a, um, we did a full inventory of all of their water infrastructure. So we went around to every Operating room. We went around to every patient room. We went around to every building and we counted the number of faucets, the number of sinks, um, the number of toilets, all of those things that are going to use or need water. We took, um, an inventory of all of the, um, fire suppression, which were just. They looked like, um, propane tanks. They were small steel balls affixed to the ceiling that were pressurized that would push water out in the event that there was a fire. And then we had to figure out where their water was coming from. Their water comes from a source about one and a half kilometers up in the, the rainforest from where the hospital campus is. And because there's no freezing temperatures, all of their, their water pipes, their water distribution lines are above the surface. So they run right along the surface of the ground from the hospital campus all the way up the side of this, this rainforested mountain. Turns out there's a lot of farmers that actually let their cattle graze in the areas where that water line is on the surface. So it, they had a tendency to break, especially if the cows had an opportunity to kick at them or if they wanted something that was underneath them. So we were able to, uh, not only locate, but we hiked up to their water source. We did some water quality sampling. We made recommendations for some improvements to the distribution line from the source to the campus. We also made some recommendations for some lower cost alternatives for things like, uh, treatment to make sure that the pathogens, so there was a lot of coliform, a lot of E. coli, um, to make sure that they were filtered out. Um, we also provided some additional storage capacity during the rainy season, so we offered some... Uh, select locations for things like 10, 000 gallon stormwater tanks that could then be used and put through the cleaning process and used for distribution. Um, along with that, we had an architectural team that looked at, um, ADA accessibility. It's a hospital. We want to make sure that we have the opportunity to let wheelchairs and gurneys and other things through. And by the end of three weeks, we had developed and put together, um, a full plan. Um, I say a full plan. It was a full concept plan, um, of all the things that we had recommended, including some, uh, cost estimates. So things like curbing. What's that going to cost in Kenya? Um, so we had to look at all those things. But we put together a really great package and we turned it over to the surgeon and the owners of the, the hospital campus. Um, we had six months to wrap up our project afterwards, you know, do all those fine tuning details. Um, and then we turned it over to them for funding. Now, I haven't spoken with the surgeon in a number of years, but the last time I heard anything, um, they had a verbal commitment for some funding from GE and were just looking for a match. So, again, it's just a different way to apply engineering, um, using vastly different resources. And significantly less money, but still a lot of fun. 00:45:16 Carlos Ramos: It sounds like an amazing opportunity in, uh, you know, to go from Penn College and graduate to get that opportunity and all the other opportunities you've had and be able to come back here and set Zach up and the rest of his, his peers up for that. 00:45:36 Ruth Hocker: It's a little unbelievable, but I am hoping that all of my students get to follow a similar trajectory if they want to. 00:45:41 Zachary Hepler: No, I'm hoping, I'm definitely hoping that I will be able to explore the world with my career. 00:45:49 Carlos Ramos: Now, we talked about global experiences with, with a, a couple to guess, and we have a, another one that I think we've, we have on deck have, have you thought about how civil engineering. Uh, and Global Experiences kind of fit together because I mean, just sounds like right there was an example there. 00:46:08 Ruth Hocker: Yes, I have thought about it, but again, I'm still very new, um, with the college. So I'm, I'm still learning a lot of the day to day operations of, of being a college professor. Um, but I think there's a number of different opportunities. There are organizations like EMI. um, that engage college students in service projects. Um, there's also opportunities, um, I think some of the, the architecture folks or maybe even some of the anthropology folks have looked at some of the historical sites in Europe. The earliest water and wastewater treatment systems in the world that we still have access to, still visible today in Rome. I would love to be able to take a, a civil engineering You know, group over there to look at this, you know, here's your concrete aqueduct. This is what took water from point A to point B. Now we use pipes and pressure, but this is still standing from what 2000, almost 2000 years ago now. So I've thought about it. I don't exactly know what the, um, what the future holds for that. Um, but I have high hopes because there are certainly opportunities to learn from the past and, and. Not just learn from the mistakes of the past, but also the things that have worked. One of the things that I'm, I'm working on now, um, in cooperation with some of our emergency management folks that I'm hoping to bring students in here, in on here in a few days, um, is looking at the Johnstown, um, dam failure out in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. And there's a trail that runs right along there called the Path of the Flood. that they run, uh, marathons and half marathons every year. Oh, wow. Um, but again, that's another case of infrastructure where we can learn from the past, but also think about, well, what are we doing? What can we do better? 00:47:55 Sumer Beatty: Knowing that civil engineering, and maybe even just engineering in general, has traditionally been a male dominated field, having been in the field as a female, do you feel like there are some special characteristics that women bring to a civil engineering, uh, project and the value that a, a different perspective might have? 00:48:17 Ruth Hocker: Yes. And I want to make sure that I'm saying this tactfully. 00:48:21 Sumer Beatty: I guess another way to phrase it is, at least in terms of a question, if I would certainly hope most. Girls growing up aren't thinking, well, gee, I can't do that because I'm, I'm a girl, you know, but I don't know what your thoughts were when you went into civil engineering as a profession. Did, did that even cross your mind or were you just thinking, you know what, I think this is going to be awesome and I'm going to do it. 00:48:47 Ruth Hocker: So I will be, I will be, I'll be brutally honest and you can cut out and keep whatever you want. Um, my first attempt at college was in a liberal arts degree. Um, because I was afraid of math. Mostly because of my experience in middle school and high school. Um, again, the universe works in mysterious ways, and the program that I was enrolled in, both of the instructors decided to retire at the same time. They couldn't find replacements, so I was kind of out in the street. Um, and I wasn't about to pay university tuition, so I took a semester off and took some math and science at the local community college. Um, and I met a gentleman who had been taking classes here. And he needed some help. He needed somebody to hold the, um, hold the survey rod for him while he made up a project that he had missed, I think, due to an illness or an absence. Um, so I came out with him on that weekend, and I got to meet Dr. Sprinsky, who, if you've spent any time on this campus prior to... 2005. Um, you're probably aware of who he is. If you're not, he was a retired, like, army something. I don't know. I don't know if he was a general or a colonel, but he was very militaristic in manner, um, and very, very terse in his communication. Um, as was my dad, so he did not intimidate me at all, and I think he tried, but it didn't work. Um, I asked him a lot of questions about what it was, and he expressed the fact that I seemed to pick them up, like, pick up some of the concepts on surveying really, really quickly. Um, and he said, well, you should give Penn College a try. And I said, alright, sure, not a problem. The following fall, I enrolled in my first class, um, and with his prodding, or encouragement, Whatever you want to call it, um, I walked out of here with a bachelor's degree in civil engineering technology, an associate's degree in surveying, um, and I also have a math degree and now I've got a master's degree from Penn State. Um, so when it comes to self doubt, um, or needing to make sure that you're being apprehensive about trying something new or something that you, you understand to be male dominated and too nerdy or too sciency, I would say you never know until you try. And if it makes you happy, do it. There's always an opportunity to learn from mistakes. Um, and if you're not happy, what's the point? 00:51:21 Sumer Beatty: Right. Yeah, and I think if you want something bad enough, you'll figure it out, right? 00:51:26 Ruth Hocker: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and I, there are some amazing young women in our program now that I have in my classes. Um, and I, I see them start off as very quiet. Um, and they're a little shy sometimes. Um, and usually, if I walk around the classroom and we're having a discussion and I ask them a question, Nine times out of ten, they'll have the right answer in response, but it'll come out as a whisper, at which point I'll say, you know, just give them a little nudge, say it a little louder. And once I do that, and they realize that they've, they've got what it takes, that sort of flips that switch, and then they're not afraid to voice opinions. And that's really all civil engineering is. You know, you have an opinion, you know your job, you work with others, and you come up with the best solution to make the best possible outcome for everybody. 00:52:14 Sumer Beatty: Nice. I bet it's really rewarding, too, to see those students progress. Now that you've been here for a little bit, you're seeing them mature and feel confident, and they go to their internships and graduate and just, yeah. 00:52:28 Ruth Hocker: Absolutely. And seeing some of them exploring new things, either through internships or volunteer opportunities, or even getting involved in civic government, um, it's always amazing for me. And really, it makes me very happy to see them taking on those roles without any fear. Um, At least not outwardly anyway. And, but even if there is a little fear though, they, they know where to come for for questions. You know, they know where to look for the solutions. Um, and they, they've become effective at communicating what their desires are, what their needs are, and, and what their role is in whatever capacity is in which they're serving. I 00:53:05 Carlos Ramos: think we are at a. Good point to close up. I mean, you've, you've, you've given us one, some excellent advice there at the end. And I think translates to well beyond, you know, what, what, what you're doing in civil engineering. 00:53:20 Ruth Hocker: Okay. I didn't mean to get on a soap box though. So I apologize if that was uncalled for. 00:53:24 Carlos Ramos: No, we end on soap boxes. 00:53:27 Sumer Beatty: Actually, don't we just go there and hang out? 00:53:32 Carlos Ramos: So Ruth, uh, Zach, anything else that you'd like to add? Any, any, uh, takeaway that you'd like to, to share with the audience? 00:53:44 Ruth Hocker: Society needs civil engineers. We are, we're, we're anticipating needing 25, 000 over the next 10 years. Um, so if anything we talked about today is even remotely interesting, um, or sounds interesting to you, um, don't hesitate to give us a call. Send me an email. Come visit us for an open house, you know, see what it's all about. You don't have to make your decision at the last minute, your senior year. You know, if you're a freshman, junior, sophomore, come check us out. 00:54:10 Zachary Hepler: I agree with her statement. That's completely true. We definitely need them, especially more now than never. 00:54:19 Sumer Beatty: Thanks for hanging out with us today. 00:54:20 Carlos Ramos: Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. 00:54:25 Sumer Beatty: Check out our show notes for bookmarks to your favorite sections and links to resources that we mentioned in today's episode. 00:54:31 Carlos Ramos: You can also find past episodes and see what's on deck for upcoming ones at pct.edu/podcast. 00:54:38 Sumer Beatty: And of course, we are open to your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions, so send those over at podcast@pct.edu 00:54:46 Carlos Ramos: it's been real. 00:54:48 Sumer Beatty: Catch you next time.