Dr. Summer Bukeavich: Don't Get Anxious

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,800 Welcome to Tomorrow Makers, where we explore how we learn, live, work and play now and 2 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:10,800 in the future. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:11,800 I am Sumer Beatty. 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:12,800 And I'm Carlos Ramos. 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:13,800 All right. 6 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:19,280 So we're here today with Summer Bukhevich, business professor at Penn College, and she 7 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:25,240 is coming to us open and willing to discuss mental health through her personal journey. 8 00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:27,440 You know, we do have fun with this one again. 9 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:28,440 We're going to say it. 10 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,320 I said to her, I don't know if there's been two Summers on a podcast before, but we did 11 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:33,320 it. 12 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:39,400 And I just think she is so candid and open and we hope that it impacts you like it did 13 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:40,400 us. 14 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,760 And you know, even if you're not somebody who experiences anxiety, believe it or not, 15 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:49,720 you're probably in contact with somebody and you might or might not know it. 16 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:55,640 And you know, I felt so much calmer after this episode and there were just some clear 17 00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:03,280 ways that we could handle anxiety at any level, whether it's, you know, I'm usually pretty 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,520 even keeled, but I can have my moments. 19 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:07,000 I'm sure we all do. 20 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:08,000 Sure. 21 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,000 Yeah. 22 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:10,000 So, so helpful. 23 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,960 And I really appreciate her coming out and doing this with us. 24 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:13,960 Yeah, for sure. 25 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:14,960 Here we go. 26 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:15,960 Do it. 27 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:16,960 Yeah. 28 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:17,960 How are we going to do that? 29 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:26,120 I don't know. 30 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:27,120 You tell me. 31 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:28,120 Do what? 32 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:29,120 We're just going to start. 33 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:30,120 Oh, okay. 34 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,000 Do you think two Summers have ever been in a podcast together before? 35 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,000 I don't know. 36 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,000 We need a researcher. 37 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,080 In the history of podcasts, which is still pretty early. 38 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:40,080 Yeah. 39 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,080 It's kind of strange. 40 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:43,080 It is. 41 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:44,160 I love it though. 42 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:45,520 Summer B's, no less. 43 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:46,520 Oh, right. 44 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:47,520 Summer B. 45 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:48,520 Yeah. 46 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:49,520 We have a great, amazing background to Summer B's. 47 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:50,520 So here we are. 48 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:51,520 It's weird. 49 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:52,520 All right. 50 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:53,520 Are we ready? 51 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:54,520 We're ready. 52 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:55,520 Yeah. 53 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:56,520 Okay, great. 54 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:57,520 Let's do this. 55 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:58,520 Okay. 56 00:01:58,520 --> 00:01:59,800 So I think it makes sense. 57 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:01,120 We'll have you introduce yourself. 58 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:02,120 Okay. 59 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:03,120 Let us know who you are. 60 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:04,120 Who am I? 61 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:05,120 Yeah. 62 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:06,120 Your role at Penn College. 63 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:12,720 And then we can just kind of go into mental health and why that topic is kind of near 64 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:13,880 and dear to your heart. 65 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:14,880 Sounds good. 66 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,600 So my name is Summer Bukeavich. 67 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,880 And I'm actually going into my 10th year, speaking of 10 years. 68 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,740 My 10th year teaching full time here at the college. 69 00:02:26,740 --> 00:02:30,680 And I taught two years prior to that as an adjunct. 70 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,240 I am in business administration. 71 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:39,400 So I teach marketing and management courses, a whole variety of them, 100 level up to 400 72 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,040 level. 73 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,760 And boy, what else do I do here? 74 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:50,880 A lot, academic advising on a couple committees, advisor to the Penn College Business Club. 75 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,040 So yeah, that is what I do here. 76 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:54,040 Nice. 77 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:55,040 Okay. 78 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,220 So for some, it might be like, oh, this is interesting. 79 00:02:58,220 --> 00:03:00,000 So there's this marketing background. 80 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,000 What the heck does mental health have to do with anything? 81 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:04,000 Yeah. 82 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,120 So it's funny. 83 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,680 As I was sitting down this morning trying to think about, you know, oh my gosh, you 84 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:10,120 know, how am I going to respond to these questions? 85 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,680 What am I going to say? 86 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:18,640 I was thinking about a book that I had listened to on Audible earlier this summer called Range 87 00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:19,640 by David Epstein. 88 00:03:19,640 --> 00:03:20,640 Yes. 89 00:03:20,640 --> 00:03:21,640 Either of you have heard of it. 90 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:22,640 Oh, okay. 91 00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:23,640 Fantastic. 92 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:29,480 So then you will know that it is about the importance of generalists in a specialized 93 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:30,480 world. 94 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:37,400 And so I don't know, I feel like I've always worn many hats. 95 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:43,240 And I don't think it's a bad thing to wear many hats so long as you can balance all of 96 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,640 those hats appropriately. 97 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,560 Do you want to hear the origin story? 98 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,880 Like how all of this came to be? 99 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:52,880 Is that helpful? 100 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:53,880 Sure. 101 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:54,880 I think that would give some nice context. 102 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:55,880 Okay. 103 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:56,880 Gotcha. 104 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,400 So connection to mental health. 105 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:00,600 So it's interesting. 106 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:08,200 I guess I should preface this by saying I never really thought I would be in higher ed. 107 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:13,240 Growing up, I wanted to be a teacher, but I was dissuaded from doing so for a variety 108 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,840 of reasons. 109 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:21,000 Ended up majoring in communication in college, doing communication in grad school with a 110 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:22,160 focus in PR. 111 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,080 So very like marketing adjacent. 112 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,640 But the mental health piece started when I was in college. 113 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:36,800 And I've been very open about this and I'm willing to be very open about this now, especially. 114 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:42,320 So when I was in college, I was a first year college student. 115 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,160 Nobody in my family had ever been to college before. 116 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,920 My father, single parent household, my father didn't even really understand the college 117 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:51,920 landscape. 118 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:57,120 I was on, you know, doing the FAFSA, you know, trying to navigate everything myself. 119 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:05,500 And it was my sophomore year where one night I laid down in my bed to go to sleep and my 120 00:05:05,500 --> 00:05:06,500 heart started racing. 121 00:05:06,500 --> 00:05:08,760 I was like, oh, that's weird. 122 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:10,360 Why is that happening? 123 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,720 And then I started getting lightheaded and a little nauseous. 124 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,160 So I got up and I was like, what's, wait, what's wrong? 125 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:17,440 Is something wrong with me? 126 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:18,640 What's going on? 127 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,040 These are uncomfortable sensations. 128 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,720 And of course I didn't have the clarity of mind to say things like that to myself at 129 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,800 that moment. 130 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,280 So I ran into the bathroom and I splashed water on my face and I tried to calm myself 131 00:05:31,280 --> 00:05:34,920 down and I started just shaking. 132 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:39,680 And I'm like, what in the world is going on? 133 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,520 The two thoughts that immediately popped up were, am I having a heart attack? 134 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:44,520 Am I having a stroke? 135 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,200 Like, am I having a medical emergency? 136 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:47,200 I don't know. 137 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:48,200 What do I do? 138 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:49,200 Do I call 911? 139 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:50,200 Is this nothing? 140 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:57,960 So the solution at the time for my 19 year old self was to go out into the hallway in 141 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:58,960 my dormitory. 142 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,880 It was like two or three in the morning. 143 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:07,120 And I just wandered the halls, drew on people's whiteboards to try and distract myself. 144 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:08,800 And I eventually started feeling better. 145 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,680 So I was like, okay, whatever it is is past. 146 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,800 I'm sure I'm fine. 147 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:14,800 Go to bed. 148 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,920 I was so exhausted by that point that I was able to fall asleep pretty readily. 149 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,320 But the next day I was in my astronomy class. 150 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:30,160 Of course, I didn't really want to take, but it's one of those gen ed kind of things. 151 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,320 And I started feeling those feelings again. 152 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:38,520 And I immediately became afraid of what that might mean. 153 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:39,520 I felt lightheaded. 154 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,440 I felt kind of cold and clammy. 155 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:43,920 And I had another panic attack. 156 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,680 Of course, at that point, I didn't know it was a panic attack. 157 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,240 Yeah, did you have a name for it? 158 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:49,640 Yeah, no, I didn't have a name for it yet. 159 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:55,120 I just knew that something weird was happening to me and it was really uncomfortable. 160 00:06:55,120 --> 00:07:03,080 And so to extend what could be a long story into a very short little capsule, they did 161 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,520 end up being diagnosed as panic attacks. 162 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:12,240 And they continued to bother me and completely alter the rest of my college career, my grad 163 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,240 career and the majority of my 20s. 164 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:17,240 Okay. 165 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:18,640 So, yeah. 166 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:25,080 So back to the time when you started feeling this way, how did you go from what is this? 167 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:26,720 Am I having a heart attack? 168 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:28,000 To putting a name on it? 169 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,400 Yeah, that's a good question. 170 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:36,000 Well, it's an interesting journey that it kind of took me into. 171 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,200 I went to my primary care doctor. 172 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:45,680 And of course, I had to drive home from college to do that, which was challenging in and of 173 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,040 itself because once you start getting panic attacks and you get behind the wheel of a 174 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:54,400 car, it's not so easy, especially if you have to drive a considerable distance. 175 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:59,120 So I went to my family doctor and I told him my symptoms and he said, you know, that sounds 176 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,880 like a textbook panic attack. 177 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,080 Here's some meds. 178 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:05,080 Go back to school. 179 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:06,080 You're fine. 180 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,800 I was like, oh, oh, okay. 181 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:15,640 And it was comforting hearing from him that my symptoms were aligned with what panic attacks 182 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:16,640 were. 183 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,800 But I was not given coping strategies. 184 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,640 I was not given a toolbox. 185 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,440 I was given a bottle of pills. 186 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:26,440 Yeah. 187 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:27,440 Yeah. 188 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,200 Which made things really, really difficult. 189 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:36,320 I still kind of believed what he had told me. 190 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:39,000 Hey, you're experiencing panic attacks. 191 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:45,600 But every single time I would get them, I would start to kind of question his diagnosis 192 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:53,080 and rely a little bit too much on the medication that he gave me. 193 00:08:53,080 --> 00:09:03,080 So that was a huge challenge and it made the rest of my college career so much more difficult. 194 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,760 I did my best, but I wasn't able to... 195 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,560 How do I word this? 196 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:09,560 I don't know. 197 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:10,560 I wasn't really able to thrive. 198 00:09:10,560 --> 00:09:11,560 Right. 199 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:12,560 I was going to say, yeah. 200 00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:16,880 I mean, how can you experience everything to the fullest if you're worried that's going 201 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:17,880 to keep happening? 202 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:18,880 Exactly. 203 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:20,560 Was there a trigger or... 204 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:22,800 So that's a great question. 205 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,920 At that point in time, I don't necessarily think there was a defined trigger. 206 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:31,480 I did develop triggers as time went on, mostly triggers that were related to the situations 207 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,520 in which I had the panic attack. 208 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,920 So first panic attack occurred while laying in my dorm room bed. 209 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,320 So that became almost like a bad place. 210 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,760 I had to switch my pillow to the other side of the twin bed to try and trick myself into 211 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,200 thinking, hey, this is a different place. 212 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:48,400 You're not going to panic here. 213 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:53,500 But then once I had a panic attack in that other formulation, formulation, that other 214 00:09:53,500 --> 00:09:57,120 layout of the bed, I was like, I don't know what to do. 215 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:03,320 I don't know where to sleep because both setups feel scary and triggering. 216 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:09,440 And then once I had a panic attack while driving, driving became a panic trigger, which is especially 217 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:10,440 problematic. 218 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:15,760 I did go to school here in Williamsport and I'm originally from the Wilkes-Barre area, 219 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,000 Kingston specifically. 220 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:24,360 So if you're not familiar with Route 118, 118 kind of goes through the middle of nowhere 221 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,920 when you're trying to get from Williamsport to Kingston. 222 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:28,960 I've been upside down on 118. 223 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:29,960 Have you? 224 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:30,960 What? 225 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:31,960 That's horrifying. 226 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:32,960 Yeah. 227 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:33,960 That is horrifying. 228 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:34,960 It was bad. 229 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:35,960 You're okay though. 230 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:36,960 But I'm okay. 231 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:37,960 You're okay. 232 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:38,960 That's good. 233 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:44,240 I was able to do that because I had a panic attack so severe that I just had to pull over 234 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,120 and lay down in my car. 235 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,000 There was no cell phone service, so I couldn't reach out to anybody. 236 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,920 Thankfully, some volunteer firefighter pulled up to the car and was like, hey, are you doing 237 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:53,920 okay? 238 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:54,920 And I was like, not really. 239 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:55,920 Wow. 240 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,920 And so he was able to radio for an ambulance to come. 241 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:00,920 Yeah. 242 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:02,280 And it is the middle of nowhere. 243 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:03,280 It really is. 244 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:04,280 Yeah. 245 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:05,280 So yeah. 246 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,720 Just side note, we'll circle back to why Carlos was upside down. 247 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:09,720 Yeah. 248 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:10,720 On the 118. 249 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:11,720 118. 250 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:12,720 118. 251 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:13,720 I'm not going there. 252 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:14,720 Don't. 253 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:15,720 Don't. 254 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:16,720 It doesn't sound like there's no go. 255 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:17,720 No, just take 80 if you want to walk square. 256 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,320 That's why I'm going to three o'clock in the morning on tomorrow. 257 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:21,320 Oh no. 258 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:22,320 Three in the morning? 259 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:23,320 Yeah. 260 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:24,320 Watch for deer. 261 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:25,320 Yeah. 262 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,040 Oh, you can't control when the airplanes come and go though. 263 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:29,040 So that's true. 264 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:30,040 He's going to the airport. 265 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:31,040 Oh, okay. 266 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:32,040 Fair. 267 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:33,040 Yeah. 268 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:34,040 Oh, wow. 269 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:35,040 So what a journey. 270 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:36,040 Oh my goodness. 271 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:43,000 So you had mentioned, which I think I know where you're going with this, hopefully, you 272 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,000 were given pills. 273 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,640 Like, okay, here's the solution. 274 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,400 But it sounds like now you're, this was a bit ago. 275 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,040 You've come a ways since then. 276 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,040 Oh, yes. 277 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:56,040 How did you, there's more to solution, a solution rather than pills. 278 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,040 So what did you? 279 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,240 Well, figure out who were your resources. 280 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:06,400 Wow, that's a, this is, it's such a big question with a lot packed into it. 281 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,880 And I'm trying to just kind of think now of how I want to organize it. 282 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:10,880 Oh, definitely. 283 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,000 And I'm not saying, oh, okay. 284 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:17,920 I mean, I'm guessing it's not, okay, I was not well then and I'm great now. 285 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:18,920 Yeah. 286 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:19,920 It's a process. 287 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:20,920 It's always worked. 288 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,520 It's fun to pretend like, oh yeah, I just, you know, I just flipped a switch and everything's 289 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:24,520 fine. 290 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,160 But no, there was a lot of hard work between that and now. 291 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:35,760 So after I first realized that, you know, the temporary short-term meds weren't going 292 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:40,800 to be effective in the long-term, I did go to see a therapist before mental health parody 293 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,340 was a thing, right? 294 00:12:43,340 --> 00:12:51,980 So it was a short one-off thing, a little session with a therapist in college, kind 295 00:12:51,980 --> 00:12:53,920 of ineffective. 296 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,400 She told me, hey, yeah, your symptoms are consistent with panic disorder. 297 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,600 So you know, that's good. 298 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:05,480 When you start feeling yourself, feel those anxious feelings, feeling like you're woozy, 299 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:10,680 feeling like you're hardest racing, just stop and tell yourself, stop. 300 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:11,680 It's okay. 301 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:12,680 You don't need to panic. 302 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:13,680 And I was like, okay. 303 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:15,680 Why didn't I think of that? 304 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:16,680 Yeah. 305 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:17,680 That's cool. 306 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:18,880 I'll try that next time. 307 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:25,540 And I tried that next time and it didn't work, of course, because why would it? 308 00:13:25,540 --> 00:13:29,440 So I ended college thinking, that's what therapy is. 309 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,320 Okay, clearly that's not going to be helpful for me. 310 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,640 So maybe there's another kind of medication. 311 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:42,480 So I ended up getting on another type of medication, an SSRI, which, oh boy, I have a lot to say 312 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,280 about that, but I'll be kind of short and sweet about it. 313 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,200 Do you want to give an example of like what that would be? 314 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,160 So that serotonin re-uptake inhibitor. 315 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:50,160 Yes, exactly. 316 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:51,800 So specifically Paxil. 317 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:53,640 I'll never forget my doctor. 318 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:59,360 I went to him and I said, hey, doctor, these panic attacks are still really bothering me. 319 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:05,360 This prescription for Xanax is, it's useful sometimes, but I don't want to be on this 320 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:06,760 all the time. 321 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,600 And he said, okay, well, we can put you on an SSRI. 322 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,360 I pulled out his prescription pad and he actually said, hmm, Selexer or Paxil? 323 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:14,360 Selexer or Paxil? 324 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:15,680 And I will go with the Paxil. 325 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:20,120 I have some samples for you because we didn't have a whole lot of money, so I appreciated 326 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:21,840 samples for sure. 327 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:29,840 And so I ended up on the lowest dose of Paxil in college and it was great until I couldn't 328 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:30,840 afford it anymore. 329 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:36,880 And during my senior year of college, I couldn't afford it. 330 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,280 So I said, you know, I'm just, I'm done. 331 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,160 I have maybe 10 more pills. 332 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,200 I'll take one every other day and then I'll just stop. 333 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:51,180 And this is before they knew that SSRI withdrawal symptom was a thing, but it is. 334 00:14:51,180 --> 00:14:58,560 So I ended my college career, this had to be the last two months of college, in withdrawal 335 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:04,320 from SSRIs with a symptom, a very disconcerting symptom called the brain zaps. 336 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,640 I don't know if you're familiar with those or if you've ever heard of them, but every 337 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:08,640 time you... 338 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:09,640 Explain that. 339 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:10,640 Yeah. 340 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,320 Every time you turn your neck to the side, you get this like electrical sensation that 341 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,400 kind of runs from the top of your head down through your spine. 342 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:20,400 Oh, great. 343 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:21,400 Yeah. 344 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:22,400 It's a great way to finish out your college career. 345 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:28,280 You just, you feel wonderful and it just, yeah, it's awful. 346 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:37,480 So I somehow figured out a way and I can't remember the details of that. 347 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:43,120 I think I convinced my dad to give me $40 so I can get another month's subscription 348 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:48,120 for it or subscription, prescription so that I didn't have to deal with that because I 349 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:53,840 knew I was going on to grad school and I needed to be in good form for that because I knew 350 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,720 I had a big challenge ahead. 351 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:03,400 And then once grad school came, it was challenging for sure. 352 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:09,840 I did my master's program at the University of Delaware and any grad program, holding 353 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,520 up my hands about a foot apart, there's this much reading every semester. 354 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:15,520 It's insane. 355 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:20,800 But the Paxil dulled my senses, it made a lot of things disinteresting, disinteresting, 356 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,280 uninteresting, one of those words. 357 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:23,280 Yeah, we got you. 358 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,240 Yeah, yeah, thank you. 359 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:32,020 So at that point I was like, you know, I'm doing well enough, maybe I can stop taking 360 00:16:32,020 --> 00:16:34,080 this medication. 361 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:40,720 And that was honestly the beginning of my mental health journey. 362 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:45,380 I tell myself that that was the beginning because that's when I really began participating 363 00:16:45,380 --> 00:16:54,680 in mental health communities online and began publishing work as or writing basically on 364 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,560 the patient experience. 365 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:02,080 So what had happened then is I started to slowly withdraw from Paxil because I didn't 366 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,600 want those brain saps anymore. 367 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,140 And it was a long process. 368 00:17:07,140 --> 00:17:13,680 Doctors were not convinced at that point in time, like I said, that withdrawal was a thing. 369 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:20,440 So I worked with an online community of people who were going through the same thing. 370 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:25,000 On a whim one night wrote a submission. 371 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,240 The LA Times had some kind of article about SSRIs and I was like, I want to write like 372 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:35,160 a letter to the editor style thing to the person who wrote that article because this 373 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,640 is like the first person who's ever written about SSRI withdrawal or referred to it or 374 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,120 something. 375 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:45,820 So there I am at like one in the morning typing out this long missive about what my experience 376 00:17:45,820 --> 00:17:47,140 was like. 377 00:17:47,140 --> 00:17:48,140 And I sent it in. 378 00:17:48,140 --> 00:17:49,280 I'm like, I'll never hear back. 379 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,600 The next day I heard back, they're like, we're going to publish your thing. 380 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,920 And I was like, oh my God, that's amazing. 381 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:56,280 So it was really exciting. 382 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:04,280 And so ever since then, I have had a series of fortunate kind of events occur that have 383 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:09,680 kind of given me a platform to speak out about mental health experiences. 384 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:16,760 I was very hesitant when I was told that my work was going to be published because I realized 385 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,520 I'm like, I'm going to have to tell everybody now what's going on with me. 386 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:26,000 I really didn't tell anybody in college except for a couple of close friends. 387 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:33,000 I most certainly didn't tell anybody in grad school because grad school is kind of cutthroat. 388 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:39,560 You really don't want to show your weak side or at least back then in the late 389 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:46,080 aughts lest you be, boy, I don't want to say targeted. 390 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:47,080 It's not like that. 391 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,240 But you don't want to show where your weaknesses are because everyone else seems so strong 392 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:52,240 and so intelligent. 393 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:53,240 Right? 394 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,040 And imposter syndrome is a big thing. 395 00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:01,520 So I kind of like, I think the phrase I used was, you know, came out of the medicine cabinet 396 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:02,520 at that point. 397 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,040 You know, hi, I have anxiety. 398 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:05,040 My name is Summer. 399 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:06,840 I take medication. 400 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,120 This is what's going on with me. 401 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:11,640 How was that received at that time? 402 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:12,640 Surprisingly well. 403 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:13,640 Oh, good. 404 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:14,640 Surprisingly well. 405 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,000 I was very nervous. 406 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:23,680 But as people began to see that article, both within my grad school circle and in the community 407 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:28,400 in general, like when I say community, I really mean like the nation because it was the LA 408 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,900 Times, right? 409 00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:30,960 It was very well received. 410 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:38,720 I got, boy, I don't know, probably a dozen, two dozen emails the first day. 411 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:44,280 By the end of the first week, I probably had up to maybe about a hundred people email me 412 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:48,720 saying, oh, my God, this is exactly what I'm going through. 413 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:54,120 I have experienced that and I haven't heard anybody, anybody in public ever talk about 414 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:59,840 these withdrawal side effects from these psychiatric meds. 415 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,720 So thank you so much for putting that out there. 416 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:10,480 And I like something clicked in me when I began getting those messages again and again. 417 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,800 I was like, OK, this is something that needs to be talked about. 418 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:22,280 There is absolutely no reason to keep mental health struggles and, you know, their their 419 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,800 adjacent issues like medication therapy, et cetera. 420 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,800 There is no reason to keep that stuff quiet. 421 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:27,800 Let's talk about it. 422 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,840 This is stuff that we all experience, maybe not all of us, but many of us. 423 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:32,840 Right. 424 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,840 You know, one in four U.S. adults are living with some type of a mental illness. 425 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:38,840 So heck, isn't it time we talk about it? 426 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:39,840 Yeah. 427 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:40,840 Great point. 428 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,020 Was there anyone close to you that was like, I had no idea. 429 00:20:44,020 --> 00:20:45,800 Why didn't you come say something? 430 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:46,800 Yes. 431 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:47,800 OK. 432 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,800 So it's really funny that you mentioned that in college in particular. 433 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,240 I remember a friend of mine named Crystal. 434 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,120 I was walking to class one day and, you know, it was fall. 435 00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:58,040 I had my warm, cozy sweater on. 436 00:20:58,040 --> 00:20:59,280 I had my little messenger bag. 437 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,720 And I was just smiling on the way to class. 438 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:07,440 And Crystal comes up to me and she's like, Summer, oh, my gosh, you look so relaxed. 439 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,760 I wish I could be as calm as you are. 440 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:10,760 I'm like. 441 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,160 And inside, you're just this boiling lot of. 442 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:15,160 Exactly. 443 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,880 I'm like, God, I guess I really do hide it well. 444 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,680 But is that right? 445 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:22,680 You know? 446 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:23,680 Yeah. 447 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:24,680 Like, is that right? 448 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:25,680 Do we need to be hiding these things? 449 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:30,680 You know, I grew I grew up with a boomer dad who, you know, he was a little boy. 450 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:35,600 And, you know, kind of grew up during that time of, oh, no, if you have a problem, you 451 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:36,600 you. 452 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:37,600 Right. 453 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:38,600 You suck it up. 454 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:39,600 Yeah, you suck it up. 455 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,600 You keep it inside your chest until you die, I guess. 456 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,240 I don't know. 457 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,160 That's not but that's not my philosophy. 458 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:51,640 You know, I I feel good when I share my story and I share my experiences because I know 459 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:56,720 that there are people out there listening who also struggle with the same issues. 460 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:02,840 And I mean, if I could have had I don't want to say a mentor, really, but if I had been 461 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:09,400 in college and I could find, you know, somebody who is older experience, somebody who's already 462 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,760 in the workforce, who would be willing to raise their hand and say, hey, I have a decent 463 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:14,760 job. 464 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,720 I've had success in my life and I struggle with anxiety severely. 465 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,480 But you know, I'm doing OK. 466 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:22,480 I figured it out. 467 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,440 I would have I would have had such a different experience. 468 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,800 I really thought this was the end of the world for me. 469 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:29,800 Right. 470 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:30,800 Yeah. 471 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,400 So here you are teaching at a college, you know, and if you think about your former self 472 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,160 sitting in that classroom. 473 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,040 So have you had an opportunity to be that person? 474 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:40,040 Yes. 475 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:41,040 Oh, nice. 476 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:42,040 I absolutely have. 477 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:46,140 Several students, you know, clearly won't name them, but one one student that comes 478 00:22:46,140 --> 00:22:52,920 to mind in particular, she was a nontraditional student, I think, in her later 20s, had a 479 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,760 young child and just very clearly. 480 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,240 I forget what what really kind of tipped me off. 481 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:04,720 I think it was absences, absences, you know, without communicating with me. 482 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,760 And I reached out to her one day via email and I was like, hey, you know, I just want 483 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:09,760 to check in. 484 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:10,760 You know, is everything OK? 485 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,840 I noticed that you haven't been coming to class. 486 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,120 I know you mentioned something about, you know, you have a two year old, you know, I 487 00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:19,160 have a kid. 488 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,320 Things things are challenging when you have a kid. 489 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,480 Just you know, how are things? 490 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,000 And she said that she was really struggling. 491 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,300 And so she opened up to me a little bit via email. 492 00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:34,320 So I actually referred her to counseling. 493 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,320 I don't if I remember correctly, she wasn't aware that counseling was available for free 494 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,280 on campus with her, you know, her being a student. 495 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:48,200 And she wrote back to me a couple of days later and she said, yeah, you know, counseling 496 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,520 reached out to me and I struggled with it for a few days. 497 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:58,560 I felt a little uncomfortable at first, but then I realized that I'm really grateful that 498 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,080 that's a thing that you. 499 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,080 Yeah. 500 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,800 And so she she did pursue counseling. 501 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:10,720 I came back to class, did fine in class, and I actually keep in touch with a student on 502 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,240 Facebook. 503 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,840 And she is thriving with her now older kiddo. 504 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:17,840 So that's awesome. 505 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:18,840 Yeah. 506 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,440 And it just it just makes my heart so happy, you know, because I feel like I'm uniquely 507 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:28,240 positioned to talk with students and to help them to at least give them resources. 508 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:29,240 Right. 509 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,240 You know, because when you're when you're a college student and you're, you know, feeling 510 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:38,880 extremely stressed, having problems with anxiety, you don't necessarily know what to do or where 511 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:39,880 to turn. 512 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:40,880 Right. 513 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:41,880 And it's a process. 514 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:42,880 It's a journey. 515 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:43,880 It really is. 516 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:44,880 Yeah. 517 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:45,880 Yeah. 518 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,000 And I think that's one of the things in life that's just fraught with change as well. 519 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,160 I'm sure that doesn't do anything to amplify. 520 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:53,160 Oh, yeah. 521 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,160 Nothing. 522 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,160 Nothing at all. 523 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,160 No, you know, it's funny. 524 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,080 I'll be well, I won't say exactly. 525 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,640 I'm in my late 30s. 526 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,800 I'll say that. 527 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,320 And as a lot of my friends are, you know, approaching 40, they're like, God, I wish 528 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,800 I can go back to my 20s again. 529 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:17,720 I'm like, I don't wish that because my 20s were full of confusion and difficulty. 530 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:23,840 And I just didn't know how to handle what life had thrown at me yet. 531 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,160 But that's that's something that developed over time. 532 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:28,420 Right. 533 00:25:28,420 --> 00:25:32,960 So if we do think about that process, I know you can't say, oh, just do this and it'll 534 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:33,960 fix it. 535 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:34,960 Uh huh. 536 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:40,280 But what are some of those really important steps that you have taken to get from where 537 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:41,800 you were to where you are? 538 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:42,800 OK. 539 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,840 Well, I will definitely say therapy is one of them. 540 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,720 One of those things. 541 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:53,120 And I encourage that of all students who come to me saying, like, hey, I'm having trouble, 542 00:25:53,120 --> 00:26:00,920 you know, struggling with balancing work and school or school and life or what have you. 543 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:01,920 Incredibly helpful. 544 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,440 A lot of students and I think this is changing. 545 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:05,440 Right. 546 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,920 But therapy used to be seen, at least in my circles, as something you do if you don't 547 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,120 know how to solve a problem yourself. 548 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:18,600 And my perspective on therapy is is much different than that now. 549 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:24,040 I really think and I tell students this verbatim, going to counseling, engaging in therapy is 550 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,240 like taking a college level course on you, on yourself. 551 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:29,540 Right. 552 00:26:29,540 --> 00:26:34,340 It's like walking into a room with a big mirror and that mirror actually shows you what's 553 00:26:34,340 --> 00:26:40,460 going on in you, right, so that you can understand yourself in a new way. 554 00:26:40,460 --> 00:26:45,860 And I think that's something that we can all really benefit from more because how can we 555 00:26:45,860 --> 00:26:48,080 be, you know, we talk about tomorrow makers, right? 556 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,240 I teach management. 557 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,460 How can we be good decision makers? 558 00:26:51,460 --> 00:26:54,860 How can we be good leaders in organizations? 559 00:26:54,860 --> 00:26:58,960 How can we manage others if we can't understand ourselves? 560 00:26:58,960 --> 00:26:59,960 Right. 561 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:00,960 Right. 562 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:02,380 You know, that all of that has to come first. 563 00:27:02,380 --> 00:27:04,240 So I encourage therapy to a lot of students. 564 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,680 Now I've done a lot of other things in my time, different types of therapy. 565 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:13,100 So I guess it's important to mention as well, excuse me, that once I went into my first 566 00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:18,760 job after grad school, well, first of all, I finished my graduate degree right at the 567 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,080 beginning of the recession. 568 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,480 So that was that was nice. 569 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:28,320 So I was underemployed for a while working in a call center. 570 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,520 Call centers are, boy, I don't know. 571 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:36,800 I've never read Dante's Inferno, but it some level of hell, some very, very deep level 572 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:37,800 of hell. 573 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,360 I'm imagining that episode of The Office where Michael is in the call center. 574 00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:44,240 I don't know if anyone's seen that. 575 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:45,240 I probably have. 576 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,480 I don't remember it, though. 577 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,480 But it paints the picture for me. 578 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:49,480 But I didn't know. 579 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,320 No, no, that's OK. 580 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,760 It's just very difficult for somebody in particular who has anxiety. 581 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,640 Right. 582 00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:58,640 Because what do you do? 583 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,440 They sit you down at a desk. 584 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,640 They put a set of headphones on and they say, OK, stay there. 585 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,600 You're only allowed a six minute break to go to the bathroom. 586 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,680 Your breaks are very rigidly structured. 587 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,160 You know, and all of that feeling like I'm out of control. 588 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,720 That helped to amp up my anxiety even more. 589 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,600 Funny story about the call center that I think is worth mentioning. 590 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,960 I share this story in my organizational behavior courses because I think it's just such a good 591 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:37,960 example of not like what you should not do if you want to put people first in an organization 592 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,840 and care for their mental health and well-being. 593 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,360 We hit some sort of like metric goal. 594 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,280 And as a result, they said, hey, you guys get a pizza party. 595 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:48,840 And we're like, yeah, pizza party. 596 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:49,840 Cool. 597 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,880 You know, so there are like 20 of us. 598 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:57,320 But for business needs, in order to keep the phones adequately staffed, we all had to go 599 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,760 into this conference room and eat pizza by ourselves. 600 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,680 We all had a 10 minute time slot. 601 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,080 And then we had to return to our desk. 602 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,520 And then the next person can go to the pizza party by themselves. 603 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:10,520 By themselves. 604 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:11,520 Single person party. 605 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:12,520 Yeah. 606 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:13,520 OK. 607 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:14,520 Yeah. 608 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:20,900 So just to kind of add context to what this place was like. 609 00:29:20,900 --> 00:29:25,880 So while I was there, of course, you know, I wasn't using my skills. 610 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:31,200 I wasn't using what I had learned in grad school. 611 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,840 So the anxiety started to really come back with a vengeance. 612 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:41,720 And I started getting panic attacks again to the point where I ultimately had to leave 613 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,320 because I just simply couldn't handle it anymore. 614 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,440 And I was going somewhere with this, but I can't remember where I was going with it. 615 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:49,440 That's OK. 616 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:50,440 Oh, actually, I do. 617 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:56,080 I have my notes here and I just realized. 618 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:05,520 That's kind of what started the transition from me being, what's the word I'm looking 619 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:11,720 for here, from anxiety having a hold on me to me beginning to have a hold on anxiety. 620 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:12,720 OK. 621 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,900 So I took some time off of work. 622 00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:21,480 That's when we actually moved up here to the Williamsport area and I ended up, as a result 623 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:31,160 of my LA Times article, I ended up being invited to write for a website called Psych Central. 624 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,680 So I began writing for their World of Psychology blog. 625 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,560 And then eventually they gave me my own blog called Panic About Anxiety. 626 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:45,000 And that is where I kind of hit my stride, I guess. 627 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:51,560 I started writing articles about my personal experiences, offering up tips, not from the 628 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,640 standpoint of a therapist, but just from the standpoint of like, oh, hi, I'm an everyday 629 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,740 human being who has experienced this. 630 00:30:59,740 --> 00:31:05,440 So let me just kind of share what it's like for somebody with an anxiety disorder at the 631 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:06,440 dentist. 632 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,960 I've got a couple tips to make things easier, et cetera. 633 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:16,960 And that made me feel super impactful. 634 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,560 You know, got a lot of comments, got a lot of emails from people saying, hey, oh my god, 635 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:21,560 thank you. 636 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:22,560 I relate. 637 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:23,560 Thank you for writing about that. 638 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:24,560 Yeah. 639 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,440 And you know, the article, maybe this is a tangent, but I'll share it anyway. 640 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:31,800 The article that I got the most feedback on, I wrote a piece about exercise-induced anxiety 641 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,280 because that's one of the things. 642 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,280 And students are told this all the time, too, right? 643 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,600 Oh, if you're anxious, go for a run. 644 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:38,600 You know, get some exercise. 645 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,120 That'll help you feel better. 646 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,400 Well, when you get panic attacks... 647 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,160 How well do you run while your heart is racing? 648 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:47,800 Well, it's not quite that. 649 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:53,680 It's that like, once your heart starts racing when you're running, it reminds you of having 650 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:54,680 a panic attack. 651 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,440 And so it's like a triggering kind of event. 652 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,560 So you know, I got all this poor advice, start running, you'll feel better. 653 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:01,760 No, no, I didn't feel better. 654 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:07,600 I just kind of felt like I was self-inducing a panic attack, which is not a very good thing. 655 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,200 And so that set me back a little bit. 656 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:14,080 But once I got to Williamsport here, and I was writing for Psych Central for a period 657 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:20,920 of time, managing my own blog, producing content, producing videos, I ended up applying for 658 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:27,720 and being accepted to, I think it was the first iteration of TEDx Williamsport. 659 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:35,600 And I did a talk there about how I managed my anxiety at the call center and how I kind 660 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,840 of climbed out of that hellhole that I had been in. 661 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,080 The general theme of that was... 662 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,360 Let me see if I remember the words here. 663 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,520 Migrate, hibernate, adapt. 664 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:55,640 I was watching a documentary, like a nature documentary show, because you know, that's 665 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:56,640 kind of nerdy. 666 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,040 You don't watch popular TV, you watch documentaries. 667 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,040 What are you going to do? 668 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,040 Nothing wrong with that. 669 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,040 Yeah, right? 670 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:07,160 And, you know, so it was about animals, and it just kind of randomly mentioned that, yeah, 671 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,200 you know, when they're in an environment that doesn't serve them, animals really only have 672 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:12,200 three options. 673 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,360 They can hibernate, they can adapt, or they can migrate. 674 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:16,840 And something about that stuck with me. 675 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:25,920 I was like, oh my God, do I have all this anxiety because I am trying to function within 676 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,160 the parameters of an environment that just doesn't work for me. 677 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,160 And that was a big turning point. 678 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:36,280 And I think that was actually the theme of the TEDx event, like transitions or turning 679 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,280 points or something like that. 680 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:43,160 Breakthroughs, that's what it was, breakthroughs. 681 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:49,000 So after I did that talk, I got a lot of feedback, positive feedback about that. 682 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:54,160 People from call centers all over the world, United States, India, Philippines, commenting 683 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,400 saying, oh my God, I have panic attacks at work too. 684 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,360 I hate my call center. 685 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:00,360 It's soul sucking. 686 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:01,840 I can't handle it. 687 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,520 And so that kind of thing really got me thinking. 688 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:11,840 And I got into this idea of, you know, what does it take to create a workplace that is 689 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,720 healthy for people? 690 00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:20,760 That is an environment that does support the employees, that does support others. 691 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:26,480 And I would call that the beginning of my slow transition to Penn College. 692 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:27,480 Okay, wow. 693 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:28,480 Yeah, I know. 694 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:29,480 It's a weird road. 695 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:30,480 It's a weird road. 696 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,680 No, it's the real road. 697 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:33,680 It's the real road. 698 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:34,680 Yeah, that happens. 699 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:35,680 True. 700 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,680 So it sounds like community was huge for you. 701 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:44,880 You started researching topics online and then being part of an online community. 702 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:50,560 And then also almost forming a community by way of this outreach, be it through articles 703 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,520 or through the TED talk, whatever it is. 704 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,680 So how has that transformed into your today? 705 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:04,320 Like, are there any communities that you're part of now or anything that I'm just thinking 706 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,360 for listeners that are thinking, wow, this resonates with me. 707 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,540 Is there something I should be a part of? 708 00:35:10,540 --> 00:35:17,280 Is there something I should be a blog or a podcast or how do they... 709 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:18,280 You know where I'm going with this? 710 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:19,280 Yeah. 711 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:20,280 I don't know if there's anything. 712 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:25,000 You know, there's a podcast I like listening to called the Anxious Overachiever. 713 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,360 I swear it's not my own podcast. 714 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:35,760 You would think it were though, where they basically interview anxious overachievers, 715 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,000 which I think I qualify as. 716 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:46,200 So that's one recommendation, but my other recommendations are a little bit more nebulous. 717 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:51,980 There's no one particular community that I've found solace in, but my recommendation would 718 00:35:51,980 --> 00:35:55,000 be just try to find a community. 719 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,720 It used to be a lot more difficult than it is now. 720 00:35:57,720 --> 00:35:58,720 I would think so. 721 00:35:58,720 --> 00:35:59,720 Yeah. 722 00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:01,160 It seems so much more... 723 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:06,080 Everyone seems open now and it's just more, I don't want to say mainstream, but it's more 724 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:07,080 talked about. 725 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:08,080 It is. 726 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:16,320 And I know that social media gets, we'll say, crapped on a lot for a lot of reasons. 727 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,680 And some of those reasons are very justifiable. 728 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:24,160 But I mean, one of the things I wrote about for Psych Central was the intersection of 729 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,000 technology and mental health. 730 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:34,600 And so that's something that I've been continually interested in even throughout my journey professionally. 731 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,880 I haven't done any work with it professionally, but it's definitely something that I'm always 732 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,840 kind of noticing and focusing on. 733 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:52,160 And TikTok, of all places, TikTok seems to have, and I say this cautiously, because if 734 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,440 you're on the wrong side of TikTok, you're not going to see this kind of content. 735 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:03,960 But once you start liking positive content that is related to a mental health issue with 736 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,280 which you identify, you start seeing more and more of that content. 737 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:13,320 And TikTok is a place where I have found a pretty decent community of folks. 738 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,480 Now I'm not really a creator on there. 739 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:21,880 I've kind of put content creation on the backseat ever since beginning to teach because, I mean, 740 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,320 let's face it, teaching takes a lot of time and work and energy, right? 741 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:31,040 And I'm all about protecting my energy now to make sure that my anxiety stays below the 742 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,560 threshold over which it would cause problems. 743 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:41,640 But there really is, I think there's really a community to be found out there on TikTok 744 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,400 and on Instagram as well. 745 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:49,440 When I was going through my doctoral dissertation process a couple of years ago in 2020 during 746 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:50,440 a global pandemic. 747 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,440 You have great timing with your educational achievements. 748 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:54,440 I do, honestly. 749 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:59,080 Oh gosh, it's ridiculous. 750 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:03,280 But I found a community on there of other people who were working on their EDDs and 751 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,280 PhDs at the same time. 752 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:11,160 And honestly, even if it's just one or two people who you can empathize with, who can 753 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,920 empathize with you, who can understand what you're going through in some of your struggles, 754 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,560 it can honestly make a world of difference. 755 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:18,560 Right. 756 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:24,320 So even if you're not the one struggling and it's important to be aware of what's happening 757 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,380 with those around you, the people you're working with, the people you, within your family, 758 00:38:28,380 --> 00:38:30,480 your friend group, everyone. 759 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,200 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 760 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,760 And I do think that people talk more about mental health now. 761 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,200 And I've often chewed on that question, like, you know, why? 762 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:39,320 What exactly changed? 763 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:46,240 Is it just the fact that social media exists or are we seeing a greater cultural shift? 764 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:53,360 Does it have something to do with, you know, Gen Z being primarily raised by Gen X? 765 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,640 You know, boomers are kind of, you know, aging upward. 766 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,800 You know, it's many of us millennials are like, you know, still kind of struggling with 767 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:02,800 it. 768 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,560 But I, a lot of my students are Gen Z and they're just so willing to come to me and 769 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:14,640 be like, oh, yeah, hey, so I have bipolar disorder or hey, I have ADHD. 770 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,080 You know, can we talk about this or that? 771 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,560 And I'm like, wow, you guys are just coming throwing it out there. 772 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:21,560 And that's amazing. 773 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,840 Like, I, I absolutely love that. 774 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:30,720 And I really think that the world is changing for the better in that regard. 775 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:31,720 Yeah. 776 00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:32,720 Yeah. 777 00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:37,040 So back to you had mentioned that they were just very forthcoming with that information. 778 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:42,520 Did you feel a sense of relief when you, you know, put those articles out there and came 779 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,040 out and finally was just like, you know what? 780 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:46,040 Yeah. 781 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,080 I got this going on and it is what it is. 782 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:49,080 Yeah. 783 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,080 Yeah. 784 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,080 Yeah. 785 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:59,480 So I think authenticity is very important for wellness, right? 786 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:06,880 If you are trying to present a version of yourself to the world that doesn't fully represent 787 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:12,960 who you are, I think in the end, you kind of end up burnt out, right? 788 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,400 Because maintaining that mask, maintaining that facade, maintaining that, oh, yes, I'm 789 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:23,800 a great professional who can do anything and I can, you know, what did job job descriptions 790 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:29,240 read like, like, oh, we're looking for somebody who is a self-starter, who's task orient or 791 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:32,280 detail oriented and can handle simultaneous tasks. 792 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,440 It's like, no, that's, that's not me. 793 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,080 Like that's not me at all. 794 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:38,080 Right. 795 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:43,480 And I, for the period of my life, when I was working in industry, when I was trying to 796 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:51,440 be exactly that, I think that's one of the things that really ramped up my anxiety. 797 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,360 And so over the years, I've learned honestly that authenticity is, is what is going to 798 00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:04,080 result in, I mean, so many better outcomes, but professionally, when you are authentic, 799 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:10,080 you're going to find a better person, organization fit to use a term that we use in organizational 800 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,460 behavior. 801 00:41:13,460 --> 00:41:17,960 And I think that's to everybody's benefit, not only organization or not only people, 802 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:19,680 but organizations as well. 803 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:20,680 Yeah. 804 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:21,680 Yeah, definitely. 805 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,800 So, how does mindset factor into all of this? 806 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,080 I mean, that's huge, right? 807 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,240 That's something that's being talked about a lot. 808 00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:33,080 So is that part of your, we'll say practice. 809 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,200 So I have a couple things to say about mindset. 810 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:42,360 So when I think about mindset, I really think about self-talk, right? 811 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:47,320 And the things that we say to ourselves really do matter. 812 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:53,320 And I know it sounds kind of like woo woo to say that, right? 813 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,920 You know, I'm not standing in front of the mirror every morning saying like, you are 814 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,960 intelligent, you are capable, right? 815 00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:03,680 Even though I'm asking my seven-year-old to do that sometimes, because I feel like it's 816 00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:06,440 a whole other line of questioning because being a parent, right? 817 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:10,840 I'm like, okay, so there's all this, everything you've learned, and then you're wanting to 818 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,760 make sure this little person does the right things, right? 819 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:14,880 Exactly, exactly. 820 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:19,760 So I don't do that, but the stories that we tell ourselves about the experiences that 821 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,800 we undergo, I think are really valuable. 822 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:28,000 So I had a professor in college who had us do this little activity with language. 823 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:35,360 And I honestly cannot remember what her rationale for this activity was, but I've kind of, you 824 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:36,820 know, changed it up a little bit. 825 00:42:36,820 --> 00:42:41,280 And I do this with my students, right, to give them a sense of understanding of the 826 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,660 way language can impact the way we think. 827 00:42:43,660 --> 00:42:50,480 So if I were to do this with you right now, I would say, hey, Carlos, hey, Summer, I am 828 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,200 going to give you two pairs of opposites. 829 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:59,160 Or I'm sorry, a pair of opposites, like hot and cold. 830 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,160 What word describes the middle of that? 831 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,880 Like what's directly in the middle of hot and cold? 832 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:06,880 Middle right to warm. 833 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:07,880 Warm? 834 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:08,880 Yeah, warm. 835 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:09,880 Okay. 836 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,080 How about top and bottom? 837 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,880 This is fascinating because I was thinking of food. 838 00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,760 I was thinking ice cream and then coffee. 839 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,160 And then I'm like, what's in the middle? 840 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,160 I don't know. 841 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:23,160 Ice coffee. 842 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:24,160 Yeah. 843 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,040 So that's so funny how the brain works. 844 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,040 It's true. 845 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:28,040 We're all so different. 846 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,040 Yep, this is true. 847 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:31,040 Okay. 848 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:32,040 What's the lesson? 849 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,040 Well, I have two more. 850 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:34,040 Seriously, it's tough. 851 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,040 I was going to say, there's more questions. 852 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:36,040 Yeah, there are. 853 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:37,040 I'm like, what a good quiz. 854 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:38,040 Top and bottom. 855 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,680 What's the term that would fall in the, and I don't want to say the- 856 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:42,680 The middle. 857 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:43,680 The middle. 858 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:44,680 Okay, left and right. 859 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:45,680 Center. 860 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:46,680 Center. 861 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:47,680 Okay. 862 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:48,680 Now I'm falling in line here. 863 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:49,680 There's going to be a trick question here. 864 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,480 It's going to be like, what do you put in a toaster? 865 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,680 How about happy and sad? 866 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:55,680 Content. 867 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:56,680 Content. 868 00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:57,680 Okay. 869 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,400 Okay, I think we've done enough. 870 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,280 So think about those words. 871 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,920 Middle, medium, lukewarm, whatever we said before, content. 872 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:07,920 Mocha. 873 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:08,920 Mocha. 874 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:09,920 Other than mocha. 875 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:10,920 Okay. 876 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,800 All of those words are fairly bland, right? 877 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,520 They're not super sexy. 878 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:16,520 They're not super exciting. 879 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:24,680 So when we tell stories to ourselves, at least this is what I've seen in my own brain, we 880 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,940 tend to exaggerate to make those stories exciting and interesting. 881 00:44:28,940 --> 00:44:33,480 So there's many times where I've walked into work, back when I was working in industry 882 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,000 saying things like, oh my God, I'm exhausted. 883 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,360 And then I checked myself. 884 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,960 I'm like, am I really exhausted or am I just mildly tired? 885 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:46,460 Mildly tired doesn't have the same kick to it as exhausted does, right? 886 00:44:46,460 --> 00:44:52,080 So I'm being bold in my language to be interesting, but I'm also telling myself a story that is 887 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,600 a little bit exaggerated and that I'm internalizing that story. 888 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,760 Do we really want to be doing that, right? 889 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:09,640 Our language has no very descriptive, beautiful, sexy words for those middle ground concepts, 890 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:10,640 right? 891 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:17,100 And so I think that's an important lesson to learn because our language in and of itself 892 00:45:17,100 --> 00:45:20,480 can kind of help us to exaggerate. 893 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:26,840 And so I try, when you talk about mindset, like I said, I think of self-talk. 894 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:33,720 I try to catch myself when I am telling myself a story about the kind of day I had or the 895 00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:36,460 kind of stressor that I know I'm about to experience, right? 896 00:45:36,460 --> 00:45:40,920 So we're coming up on the fall 23 semester. 897 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,360 I have a lot to prep. 898 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,240 Now I said the word a lot. 899 00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:49,540 I kind of wanted to say, I have a million things to prep. 900 00:45:49,540 --> 00:45:51,780 I don't have a million things to prep. 901 00:45:51,780 --> 00:46:00,520 So I think just checking yourself for exaggeration and correcting yourself, getting yourself 902 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:06,680 back to reality can be really helpful in reducing anxiety. 903 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,760 So that's where I think mindset comes in. 904 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,640 Yeah, I think that's great. 905 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,760 Can I say a word on mindfulness while we're talking about words that start with mind? 906 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:15,760 Okay. 907 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,040 So I did my dissertation on mindfulness. 908 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:21,000 So many people might look at me and think, oh my gosh, you must be a huge advocate of 909 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,000 mindfulness. 910 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:27,960 And to a degree I am, but I will say when I was at the University of Delaware in what 911 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:37,660 I call grad school round one, so my masters, I took a group therapy class basically for 912 00:46:37,660 --> 00:46:39,740 people who were dealing with anxiety. 913 00:46:39,740 --> 00:46:43,140 And that's where I was first introduced to mindfulness. 914 00:46:43,140 --> 00:46:46,320 And I had a hell of a time with it. 915 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:52,120 It was so incredibly hard because what is mindfulness? 916 00:46:52,120 --> 00:47:00,480 It's paying attention to the present moment intentionally without judgment. 917 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,720 What distresses somebody with panic disorder the most? 918 00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:11,680 Often, the present moment, those uncomfortable sensations, the feeling of your heart beating, 919 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:17,120 the feeling of feeling a little sweaty, clammy, et cetera. 920 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:25,480 So mindfulness over the years has kind of become, I've become more friendly with it. 921 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:30,720 But for beginners, it's not a be all and all solution. 922 00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:35,680 And if I could also say my piece about mindfulness kind of on the societal level. 923 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:41,040 I mean, mental health is a, it's a huge issue now, especially post COVID, right? 924 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:46,120 We have more people who need therapy, who are seeking therapy than we have mental health 925 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,760 therapists out there. 926 00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:52,800 So a lot of organizations are saying, hey, here's some mindfulness activities. 927 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,460 And for those who obviously can't see, which is anybody, I'm like, I'm like pretending 928 00:47:57,460 --> 00:47:59,200 to throw something in the air here. 929 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:00,200 Right? 930 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:01,200 T-shirts. 931 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,200 Here's mindfulness for you, for you, for you. 932 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:05,440 Does that work? 933 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:06,440 I don't know. 934 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,320 Maybe it works for a couple of people. 935 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:17,360 But when organizations tell their employees, like, hey, you should try to be mindful, that 936 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:27,200 puts the impetus on the individual to deal with anxiety that might stem not from themselves 937 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:34,380 and the way that they're handling the world, but from the organization at large, placing 938 00:48:34,380 --> 00:48:36,720 unreasonable requests on the employee. 939 00:48:36,720 --> 00:48:44,200 That might come from, you know, stresses from society that, you know, cannot really be responded 940 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:45,480 to with mindfulness. 941 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:46,480 Right? 942 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:53,880 So to me now, I see mindfulness kind of as a, it has the potential to just be a band-aid 943 00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,760 fix if it's not implemented the right way. 944 00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:01,080 If somebody seeks out mindfulness and uses it for their own benefit to help them with 945 00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:06,600 anxiety or depression or any other, you know, mental health issue, fantastic, but if it 946 00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:15,200 is given to somebody from an authority, from an organization, I really think it's just 947 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:19,640 a quick fix that's hiding potentially a larger problem. 948 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:25,160 I think it's important to mention, excuse me, that mental health, you know, we often 949 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,440 look at individuals and say, oh, if that person's having a mental health problem, you know, 950 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,600 there's probably something in their brain, brain chemical related, maybe it has to do 951 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,080 with trauma they experience and maybe all of that's true, but we also have to look at 952 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:44,800 the environment in which an individual works, lives, plays, and ask ourselves, does the 953 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,680 environment serve and support that person? 954 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:50,480 So that's my piece on that. 955 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:55,760 Well, that's interesting, but you got your masters in mindfulness? 956 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:56,760 No. 957 00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,440 My masters was in communication and public relations. 958 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:00,440 Yeah. 959 00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:01,440 So my doctoral dissertation. 960 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:02,440 Oh, okay. 961 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:03,440 So you're, yeah. 962 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:04,440 Okay. 963 00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:05,440 No, that's okay. 964 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,480 And I'm like, wait a minute, does she like, I can't tell if you're like for it or not, 965 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,040 but it's obviously something you were like, I want to dig into this a little bit more. 966 00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:13,040 Yeah, exactly. 967 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:18,560 Well, and my research was primarily on what students here at Penn College perceive mindfulness 968 00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:24,440 to be and how they envision it potentially being a part of their management career. 969 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:32,000 So I interviewed current management students, asked about their perceptions of mindfulness, 970 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:37,240 how they engage in mindful activity and where they see that kind of intersecting with their 971 00:50:37,240 --> 00:50:38,640 careers if at all. 972 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:39,640 Okay, I understand. 973 00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:40,640 Okay, gotcha. 974 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:41,640 Nice. 975 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:49,600 No, do we have, I feel like I went totally off the book here. 976 00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:50,600 I'm so sorry. 977 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:51,600 No, don't apologize. 978 00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,880 I gave you questions and didn't really ask them in any particular order. 979 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,200 I tend to encourage people to do that. 980 00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,480 I mean, life is all about tangents, right? 981 00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:04,400 I feel like that's how we find the good stuff. 982 00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:09,600 When we stick to a script, we don't often, I don't know, we don't often find the fun 983 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:10,600 stuff. 984 00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:16,640 I mean, if there's anything else you wanted, we can talk about some of the questions. 985 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:17,640 I'm not in a huge hurry. 986 00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:18,640 It's up to you. 987 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:25,600 What would you, what tools would you suggest to someone who they've been listening to this 988 00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,200 and they're still like, I'm just still not comfortable. 989 00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:35,820 Like I am so, I have so much anxiety about my anxiety and the idea of expressing this 990 00:51:35,820 --> 00:51:38,460 to someone. 991 00:51:38,460 --> 00:51:40,720 What are some tools that they could turn to? 992 00:51:40,720 --> 00:51:42,240 It's a great question. 993 00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:44,520 It's funny that you said anxiety about anxiety. 994 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:51,040 My blog was called panic about anxiety, so, you know, very, very meta, right? 995 00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:54,960 There's so many wonderful resources on the internet. 996 00:51:54,960 --> 00:52:01,320 I can't name any of them because it's been a while since I personally needed them, you 997 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:09,900 know, but I think where a lot of us struggle and this is, you know, this is obviously coming 998 00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:15,480 from my own experience and not everybody else's, but, you know, the folks I've talked to, the 999 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:24,520 people who've emailed me, we have expectations for ourselves, right? 1000 00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:30,240 And when we struggle to meet those expectations, I think that's something that can really feed 1001 00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:33,480 into anxiety. 1002 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:42,640 And I think if we begin to learn how to talk to ourselves as if we're talking to a friend, 1003 00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:49,840 I think that can help kind of soften some of those hard feelings, if that makes sense, 1004 00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:51,480 right? 1005 00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:58,280 For example, you know, every time I, I don't say every time, but, you know, just thinking 1006 00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:03,160 back to some situations in my past where I have a perfectionistic streak, it's true, 1007 00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:09,760 I do, where I have wanted to do really well at something and I've kind of, kind of only 1008 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:17,760 hit like 80, 85%, you know, I could, I occasionally will get really hard on myself. 1009 00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:22,420 And the self-talk that we engage in there, I think is really important, right? 1010 00:53:22,420 --> 00:53:26,520 And so what I've started doing, and I think it was, it was either a therapist or honestly 1011 00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,080 a friend from the internet who told me about this. 1012 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:36,120 I can't remember which, but ask yourself, you know, the things that you're telling yourself, 1013 00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,600 would you tell that to a friend? 1014 00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:40,080 You know, would you? 1015 00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:41,080 Oh, sure. 1016 00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:42,080 Yeah. 1017 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:45,080 I bet most people would say, no way, I would never say that to someone else. 1018 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:46,080 Oh, absolutely. 1019 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:47,080 Right? 1020 00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:51,460 So if you're caught in that spiral of like, oh my God, I'm never going to get out of this 1021 00:53:51,460 --> 00:53:53,240 panic spiral. 1022 00:53:53,240 --> 00:53:54,880 This is, you know, I'm doomed. 1023 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,420 There's no way I can ever get better. 1024 00:53:57,420 --> 00:53:59,400 Would you say that to your best friend? 1025 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,280 Like, Hey, Jennifer, you're doomed. 1026 00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:03,680 You're never going to get out of this. 1027 00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:05,120 Like, no, no, you would not. 1028 00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:06,520 Who in their right mind would do that? 1029 00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,840 So why in the world do we do that to ourselves? 1030 00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:10,840 Right? 1031 00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:11,840 Right. 1032 00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:13,600 Catching ourselves saying those things. 1033 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,240 So that's the big challenge, right? 1034 00:54:17,240 --> 00:54:21,640 And it took a long time for me to get to that point where I could kind of actively monitor 1035 00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,280 my stream of consciousness as I'm talking. 1036 00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:25,280 Right. 1037 00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,800 So I think that's an important skill set for people to eventually develop. 1038 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:36,120 But when you're in the throes of panic or anxiety or depression or anything like that, 1039 00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:39,400 you got to reach out to somebody, somebody that you trust. 1040 00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,240 I mean, it doesn't always have to immediately be a therapist. 1041 00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:43,440 It could be a trusted friend. 1042 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,840 It could be a professor, you know, it could even be now. 1043 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,000 It could even be Siri. 1044 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,200 Can I tell a fun story offering? 1045 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,720 Oh, do you want a good story? 1046 00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:55,720 Sure. 1047 00:54:55,720 --> 00:54:57,320 OK, so that's why we're here. 1048 00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:58,640 I think I read about this. 1049 00:54:58,640 --> 00:54:59,640 Did you? 1050 00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:00,640 I think so. 1051 00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:01,640 My thing. 1052 00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:02,640 From your blog. 1053 00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:03,640 So you Googled me. 1054 00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:04,640 Yeah. 1055 00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:05,640 As I would expect somebody in PR to do. 1056 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:11,760 So 11 or 12 years ago, so I printed out some notes on this just in case I was going to 1057 00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:12,760 bring it up. 1058 00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:18,280 So 11 or 12 years ago, when my husband got his first iPhone and I got my first iPad, 1059 00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:19,880 Siri came on the scene. 1060 00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:20,880 She was new. 1061 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:29,480 I still had that old weird robotic voice and I was on Twitter too much, but I was on Twitter 1062 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:36,600 and I saw somebody make a post that said I asked Siri or I said to Siri, Hey, Siri, I 1063 00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,760 want to jump off of a bridge. 1064 00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:46,000 And Siri responded back with something like, oh, here's the closest bridge. 1065 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,320 Here's the directions to get to the closest. 1066 00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,160 And I saw that tweet and I was like, you're kidding me. 1067 00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,240 That is not that's not good. 1068 00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:54,240 Right. 1069 00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:55,240 So ever curious. 1070 00:55:55,240 --> 00:55:58,680 I went to my iPad or my husband's iPhone. 1071 00:55:58,680 --> 00:55:59,680 I got an iPhone. 1072 00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:00,680 I can't remember. 1073 00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:08,120 And I started playing with Siri and actually made a video and it's still on YouTube and 1074 00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:09,880 it's called talking to Siri about suicide. 1075 00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,240 So I started with some innocuous things. 1076 00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:15,320 Well, not really innocuous, somewhat innocuous things like Siri. 1077 00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:19,360 I'm depressed just to see how she would respond. 1078 00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:20,360 Siri I don't want to live anymore. 1079 00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:25,960 And yeah, I escalated and Siri just she was good for nothing. 1080 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:27,320 She was good for nothing. 1081 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:29,400 I said, Siri, I want to kill myself tomorrow. 1082 00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,920 And so she like made an appointment for me for the next day. 1083 00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:33,920 Yeah. 1084 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:34,920 Yeah. 1085 00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:35,920 Siri, I want to sleep forever. 1086 00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:36,920 She gave me a list of hotels. 1087 00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:42,600 Oh, so so I made a video about that. 1088 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:46,200 And I'm like, all right, this has to this kind of has to be exposed. 1089 00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:47,200 Right. 1090 00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:52,000 I know she's just this little AI digital assistant. 1091 00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:57,040 But in my mind, thinking about the future, I was like, AI is going to you know, this 1092 00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:01,080 is going to grow like eventually series going to do more and be more. 1093 00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:02,080 Right. 1094 00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,640 So I posted that video to YouTube and I got a lot of flack about it. 1095 00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,800 And a lot of people if you scroll through the comments, a lot of people are like, well, 1096 00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:10,960 of course, she wouldn't like give you any real help. 1097 00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,880 I mean, she's just like a robot that lives in your phone. 1098 00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:18,400 And now look at the way we use digital assistance. 1099 00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:23,180 They're much more integrated into our lives. 1100 00:57:23,180 --> 00:57:27,240 You know, between Siri and Alexa and it just, you know, things have really changed. 1101 00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:33,720 So after I posted that video, there was a comment that I got on that video that I will 1102 00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:35,720 never forget. 1103 00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:41,480 And it said, Summer, a colleague sent this video to me and I contacted Apple and sent 1104 00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,660 the video with the guidance of a group of national advisors. 1105 00:57:44,660 --> 00:57:45,720 We worked with Apple. 1106 00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:50,460 So Siri would refer persons wanting help for suicide to the National Suicide Prevention 1107 00:57:50,460 --> 00:57:51,540 Lifeline. 1108 00:57:51,540 --> 00:57:53,060 This change is in effect. 1109 00:57:53,060 --> 00:57:55,640 Many news articles on this change are now posted on the web. 1110 00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:56,720 Thanks again, Summer. 1111 00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:02,000 You really made a difference from John Draper, PhD, the director of the National Suicide 1112 00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:03,400 Prevention Lifeline. 1113 00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:04,400 Wow. 1114 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:09,960 So that was kind of my peak in mental health advocacy. 1115 00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,000 I was absolutely floored. 1116 00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:13,000 And it's true. 1117 00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:19,800 If you ask Siri now for some type of mental health help, whether it's, you know, fairly 1118 00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:26,480 benign or fairly serious, she will not only refer you to the National Suicide Prevention 1119 00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:31,560 Lifeline, she will offer to call for you and connect you. 1120 00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:32,560 That's amazing. 1121 00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:34,400 Because yeah, I think it's really amazing. 1122 00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,920 I mean, we, especially students now, right? 1123 00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:38,920 Early 20s. 1124 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:42,720 Everyone is just so tech dependent. 1125 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:48,080 And there might be that instance where this thing, this phone that I'm holding up and 1126 00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:50,400 shaking is maybe your only support. 1127 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:56,400 So to go back to your question, even if you can't reach out to a person, a human being, 1128 00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:03,920 which is still preferable, it's amazing to me that there are digital tools now that can 1129 00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:10,040 provide you with at least some degree of crisis level support, maybe not support in and of 1130 00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:15,400 itself, but connection to supports that can help you. 1131 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:16,400 That's awesome. 1132 00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:17,400 So have you? 1133 00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,400 We'll post a link to that article and to the video so people can see that. 1134 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:21,400 Oh, cool. 1135 00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:29,480 There's some keys in how you communicate as well when you're putting yourself out there, 1136 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:36,320 when you're putting it out on the line that resonate with those that are in a position 1137 00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:40,960 to take that change that you're calling for and put it into effect. 1138 00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:44,240 You never know who's going to see what you post. 1139 00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:48,800 And I tell my students that in a completely different context, like don't post stupid, 1140 00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,640 stupid stuff that you're going to regret later on. 1141 00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:59,160 And I have those feelings initially posting about mental health related content. 1142 00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:04,480 But in this instance, I think it's really beneficial and it's made some positive changes 1143 01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:05,480 in the world. 1144 01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:06,480 So good job. 1145 01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:07,480 Thank you. 1146 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:08,480 Thank you. 1147 01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:09,480 I didn't know that. 1148 01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:10,480 I guess it's a fun story. 1149 01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:11,480 I haven't really publicized it before, but I figured now would be a good time to do it. 1150 01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:19,240 Given the conversation that we're having. 1151 01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:22,200 Yeah, perfect. 1152 01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:26,520 Thanks for sharing that. 1153 01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:32,320 So I guess like, is there anything we're missing? 1154 01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:34,400 Yeah, I think there is one. 1155 01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:35,400 There's one angle here. 1156 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:39,600 So, you know, we've talked about the individual that's dealing with anxiety. 1157 01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:46,800 How about those that are maybe you don't maybe there's somebody who's in your life in your 1158 01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:50,880 circle, who's dealing with anxiety, and sometimes we can see it. 1159 01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:57,160 But I think a lot of times, as we've acknowledged here earlier, it's hidden. 1160 01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:07,680 How do we learn to better recognize that from people that are in our lives that might be 1161 01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:15,160 dealing with that level of anxiety that is crippling, but they're hiding it so well? 1162 01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:18,040 That's a great question. 1163 01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:19,200 That's a great question. 1164 01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:27,200 I think people who've experienced it before are more likely to be able to recognize that, 1165 01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:30,280 but it's still challenging. 1166 01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:42,160 I am one of the things that I've done is I like to give people space to ask or to answer 1167 01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:43,160 questions, right? 1168 01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:50,040 So sometimes I'll be sitting down with a student and I'll say, you know, hey, you, you know, 1169 01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:53,340 you haven't been turning in your assignments, right? 1170 01:01:53,340 --> 01:01:54,340 How are you? 1171 01:01:54,340 --> 01:01:59,460 And I'll just I'll pause almost to the point of awkwardness, right? 1172 01:01:59,460 --> 01:02:07,920 And I feel like that pause extends an invitation, right? 1173 01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:15,480 And some of the things that that students respond with after I give them that pause, 1174 01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:21,600 which I think communicates to them that like, hey, I'm really allowing you to speak here. 1175 01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:28,720 Some of the things that they come back with are really deep and really heavy. 1176 01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:34,720 So I think if anybody, those of us, whether we have experience with a mental health issue 1177 01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:42,560 or not, asking questions of others, really genuinely wanting to know how people are doing, 1178 01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:44,240 not just that, oh, hey, how are you doing? 1179 01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:45,240 Oh, I'm doing great. 1180 01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:47,520 Like, no, let's let's go beyond that. 1181 01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:49,280 That pause is huge. 1182 01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:59,560 Let's be a little bit more authentic and, you know, unafraid of receiving an answer 1183 01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:00,560 that might not be the most positive. 1184 01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:01,560 That's true. 1185 01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:02,560 You ask and you might receive. 1186 01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:03,560 Yeah. 1187 01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:04,560 So be ready. 1188 01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:06,560 Right, right. 1189 01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:07,600 Exactly. 1190 01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:12,280 And you know, I think one of the best things that we can do just as humans is listen to 1191 01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:13,740 one another. 1192 01:03:13,740 --> 01:03:16,760 We can't solve everybody's problems, right? 1193 01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,240 But you know, sometimes listening is all that we need. 1194 01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:22,720 And I tell my husband all the time and I love him. 1195 01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:24,000 He's a problem solver, though. 1196 01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:27,280 So sometimes I'll come home from work and be like, oh, my God, you wouldn't believe 1197 01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:28,760 this thing that happened today. 1198 01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:33,200 And I'll tell him the thing and he'll try to craft a solution for me. 1199 01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:36,800 And I'll say, no, no, no, no, that's not what I need right now. 1200 01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:42,480 I just I need you to listen to what I'm saying. 1201 01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:43,480 And that's it. 1202 01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:44,480 That's it. 1203 01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:45,480 I don't need a solution. 1204 01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:46,840 I don't need a solution. 1205 01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:48,920 But I just need your ear. 1206 01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:53,320 And I think if we could more clearly communicate that to others, right, whether we're having 1207 01:03:53,320 --> 01:04:00,680 a conversation with them to receive advice or just to receive that helpful ear, you know, 1208 01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:02,320 why not put that on the forefront? 1209 01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:07,760 Why not actually state those things so that you can receive what you what you need from 1210 01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:10,680 a friend or a colleague or whoever you're talking to? 1211 01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:17,600 I think that's great advice just to to listen, one, listen and really, truly listen. 1212 01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:18,600 Yeah. 1213 01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:21,960 And because I'm the same way as your husband. 1214 01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:23,440 I'm like, OK, I'm analyzing. 1215 01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,880 I'm like, OK, if I was in this situation, here's what I do. 1216 01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:29,000 I might do this, might do that, might do the other thing. 1217 01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:30,800 And I'm exploring 50 different options. 1218 01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:33,040 And I'm saying, OK, are you ready? 1219 01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:34,040 Here we go. 1220 01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,280 You can do this, this, this, this. 1221 01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:41,080 And rather than that, I probably should just say, tell me more. 1222 01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:45,880 Unless someone you're talking to really wants a problem solver, you know, and if they do 1223 01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:46,880 it, it's OK to ask, right? 1224 01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:50,320 Like, are you looking for a solution or do you just need someone to listen? 1225 01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:51,320 Yeah. 1226 01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:53,960 Although that might, I guess, depends on your audience. 1227 01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:54,960 Yeah. 1228 01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:59,420 And I think we all have to consider our personal boundaries, too. 1229 01:04:59,420 --> 01:05:03,480 You know, there's been instances where a student will come with or come to me, you know, with 1230 01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:08,680 an issue and I'll be like, hey, I am having a rough day myself. 1231 01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:11,000 Can we meet tomorrow at 2 o'clock? 1232 01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:12,920 And you know, we'll talk about your options, right? 1233 01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:21,360 I think protecting our own energy is just as important because I have, so if you come 1234 01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:24,960 into my office, don't come into my office because it's a mess. 1235 01:05:24,960 --> 01:05:29,860 But if you come into my office, you'll see on the wall in front of my computer, I have 1236 01:05:29,860 --> 01:05:32,440 all sorts of quotes and things printed out. 1237 01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:36,320 And one of them is, you can't pour from an empty cup. 1238 01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,680 And that is something that I really try to live by because for years I tried to pour 1239 01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:41,840 from an empty cup. 1240 01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:47,620 You know, I tried to fit into an environment in which I didn't fit and it burnt me out. 1241 01:05:47,620 --> 01:05:52,480 And you know, I want to prevent my students from having to experience that, right? 1242 01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:57,120 So I like to give them that reminder. 1243 01:05:57,120 --> 01:05:59,560 I like to model that reminder. 1244 01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:04,040 You know, hey, my cup is full right now, I'm dealing with some stuff, I got a busy day, 1245 01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:07,080 I can't give you the attention that you need. 1246 01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:12,700 Can we schedule a time when I can be more fully present for you? 1247 01:06:12,700 --> 01:06:17,180 And I think that's a great thing, you know, because it shows students, it shows young 1248 01:06:17,180 --> 01:06:19,400 people that, like, that's okay. 1249 01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:20,400 You're human. 1250 01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:21,400 You are. 1251 01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:22,400 It's authenticity. 1252 01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:23,400 We all are. 1253 01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:24,400 Exactly. 1254 01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:28,280 You know, I don't want to put on, you know, some kind of a professional front. 1255 01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:32,160 Really in my professional career, you know, I did that a lot, you know. 1256 01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:39,400 I had a very distinct difference between me and the me that I presented in the workplace. 1257 01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:44,920 And we talk a lot about that in my organizational behavior classes. 1258 01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:49,040 And generally speaking, that's, you know, from my experience and from what I gather 1259 01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:53,880 from the research, it's not a healthy long-term behavior. 1260 01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:58,880 And I don't want my students, you know, having to go through that. 1261 01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:02,880 You know, I try to teach them that, yeah, you know, you have to be professional at work, 1262 01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:04,960 but you have to be you. 1263 01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:11,120 Because if you are not yourself, if you are not authentic, you know, are you going to 1264 01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:17,560 thrive or are you going to just kind of spend your days just, you know, wondering, oh, God, 1265 01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:19,440 boy, when is the weekend here? 1266 01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:22,040 You know, when am I going to be able to take that vacation? 1267 01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:30,360 No, you really want to find something that meshes with who you are as a human and, you 1268 01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:33,640 know, work in an environment that embraces you for who you are. 1269 01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:34,640 So. 1270 01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:40,680 Well, I think that's a great takeaway, a great place to wrap it up. 1271 01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:44,520 Thank you so much for being with us today and for opening up and for sharing your story. 1272 01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:45,520 It was wonderful. 1273 01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:46,960 Thank you for having me. 1274 01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:47,960 Absolutely. 1275 01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:51,320 Thanks for hanging out with us today. 1276 01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:55,960 Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. 1277 01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:59,960 Check out our show notes for bookmarks to your favorite sections and links to resources 1278 01:07:59,960 --> 01:08:02,000 that we mentioned in today's episode. 1279 01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:08,960 You can also find past episodes and see what's on deck for upcoming ones at pct.edu/podcast. 1281 01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:12,480 And of course, we are open to your thoughts, ideas and suggestions. 1282 01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:17,520 So send those over at podcast@pct.edu. 1283 01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:18,520 It's been real. 1284 01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:22,240 We'll catch you next time.