Dr. Brian McKeon: Learn to Learn

00:00:00 Carlos Ramos: Welcome to Tomorrowmakers, where we explore how we learn, live, work, and play now and in the future. I'm Carlos Ramos. 00:00:10 Sumer Beatty: And I'm Sumer Beatty. 00:00:11 Carlos Ramos: Hey there. 00:00:12 Sumer Beatty: Hi. 00:00:13 Carlos Ramos: All right, we are back again. Inside baseball, we actually did like three of these right in a row, but. 00:00:18 Sumer Beatty: No one needed to know that. I was gonna say I'm so exhausted after talking to Brian because he is just a jack of all trades. 00:00:26 Carlos Ramos: I'm still exhausted. Yeah. It's been weeks. 00:00:28 Sumer Beatty: Oh my. Do you guys know Brian? Do you know Brian McKeon? He is the assistant professor of biology at Penn College, and I said to Carlos, that's an understatement. I mean, this guy has done everything. 00:00:41 Carlos Ramos: If there is a picture of the Renaissance man on Wikipedia, whatever that is, I think I'm just going to have to go to Wikipedia and put Brian's photo. 00:00:48 Sumer Beatty: In a kilt. 00:00:49 Carlos Ramos: In a Superman cape. 00:00:50 Sumer Beatty: In a Superman shirt. 00:00:52 Carlos Ramos: Is it a cape or a shirt? It's a shirt. 00:00:53 Sumer Beatty: I think he probably has both. I mean, he should if he doesn't. So everyone's probably confused. Yeah. So Brian has a bachelor's and master's in molecular biology, minor in chemistry. He conducted some HIV research, and then he decided he was going to get his PhD in philosophy. 00:01:12 Carlos Ramos: And somewhere in there is a paralegal, like, I think, after all of that, right? 00:01:16 Sumer Beatty: Oh, he has taken classes at Penn College since he started here, so he has a degree, a paralegal degree, he's taken culinary and hospitality courses, business administration, chemical dependency, I think he has a total, almost 100 credits from Penn College. Just the epitome of a lifelong learner. 00:01:35 Carlos Ramos: And these are things that he doesn't just take them to take them. He has a genuine interest in making sure that he has that knowledge to be able to engage in whatever conversation and to put that through that philosophical filter as well. I mean, he's just amazing. 00:01:49 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, he's like, yeah, drawing connections from here and there and here and there. And I can't imagine being in his class. He's probably just so insightful. Actually, Towards the end of our discussion, I'm pretty sure Carlos and I were both like, can we take your class? How can we fit this into our schedules? Because, and he welcomed that, you know, just to even come in for one class. And I think that it was just as enlightening as this conversation was. I'm sure it would be a repeat experience in the classroom. 00:02:15 Carlos Ramos: So Brian, if you are listening, you don't have time for that, but we will see you. 00:02:19 Sumer Beatty: Yes. 00:02:19 Carlos Ramos: All right. So here we go. Tomorrow Makers with Brian McKeon. So you've been here how many years? 00:02:33 Brian McKeon: I just finished 19. I'm finishing up 19 years. I came in 2005, so August of 2025 will be, I've completed 20. 00:02:43 Carlos Ramos: Congratulations. 00:02:44 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, that's impressive. 00:02:45 Brian McKeon: I've taught for 25 at the moment. 00:02:48 Carlos Ramos: Okay, where'd you teach before this? 00:02:50 Brian McKeon: Before this, I taught at Binghamton University and Broome Community College in Binghamton. Binghamton's where I got my doctorate. Before that, I taught at Penn State Erie, and before that, I was doing HIV research. 00:03:04 Carlos Ramos: And did you know of Penn College? 00:03:06 Brian McKeon: I did not. I didn't hear about Penn College until I was looking for a job. 00:03:10 Sumer Beatty: What attracted you to Penn College? 00:03:12 Brian McKeon: When I was in Binghamton at Broome Community College, I was what they called a full time adjunct. I had contracts every semester, but I had health insurance and all that stuff. They got a new president and the president said, well, we're not doing this anymore. So I had to apply for jobs and, Penn College, I liked that it was small classroom size, no research. I had done research. I wasn't interested in research and teaching. And I had to have a job. I had kids to feed. But Penn College, interestingly enough, advertised early. I had a job offer by February. of that year, whereas all the other jobs were only starting to advertise and I liked it a lot when I came here. When I came here, the people were amazing. I really liked the administrators that I met and the faculty. So all of that really sold me. But, it did help that I didn't have to wait till June. to know if I was going to teach somewhere in August because my job was going away in August. 00:04:06 Sumer Beatty: And you came here to teach which subjects? Because for our listeners, we were attracted to talking to Brian because I just couldn't keep up with all of the different areas that you're involved with. You have so many different interests and areas of expertise. It's just, it's amazing. 00:04:22 Brian McKeon: I appreciate it. so originally my bachelor's and master's are molecular biology and I had a minor in chemistry and then I did some HIV research. And then when I went to teach at Penn State Erie, I had my master's and I was a lab coordinator and I, I got involved with a philosopher there and he and I were talking and he said, you know, I think you'd like philosophy. So when I moved to Binghamton, I got into the PhD program in philosophy. And, I liked that because that really helped me to be a better scientist, a better professor, I thought, in terms of honing my ability to ask questions. I've always questioned everything, but this really gave me the tools to do a better job of that. And when I came here and I could take classes for free, I thought that being in the classroom one, I would gain information. It's not that I couldn't learn it on my own, but you know, if you're sitting in the classroom and taking classes for credit, it forces you to fine. I'll memorize this. I'll study this. Even if I'm tired, that was a nice thing being in class. I learned stuff that if I was tired or busy, I wouldn't have taken the time to do, but then I had forced myself to do it. And ultimately, I wanted to take as many classes as I could to, because I like learning things. I want to be entirely self sufficient whenever I can be. So I'd like learning those things. But I also liked Being able to relate better with students. When I was probably in my early 20s, I was having a conversation with someone and I knew a little bit of what they were talking about. But afterwards, I was kind of embarrassed that I didn't know enough, like I wanted to know more. So early on in my life, I decided I wanted to be able to converse with anyone in any situation and be at least semi intelligent, know their language a little bit. That's how I connect with people to the best of my ability. So ultimately now I see myself as a sort of a jack of all trades, but master of one. My goal was to be a master as a teacher to the best of my ability. Hopefully someday I'll have that down. But I can relate with students because when they talk to me about their programs or their classes, bring things up, I, I can understand those things because I've... and I also say to them, look, I'm in class. I've been in class my entire life. So I understand that you have a lot of work to do, that you have families. I've always had a family and a job, multiple jobs usually. So being able to relate to them and help them learn, I think, came easier for me because of those interactions that I had in the classroom, in those different topics. 00:06:52 Carlos Ramos: That seems to be pretty consistent here among faculty that I've met that aren't in the applied technology majors that we have. Is that your impression as well? That the faculty do know a little bit about the welding program, they know about the nursing program, they know about the automotive program? 00:07:10 Brian McKeon: Yeah, I definitely think that's the case. We have advisees. that often start off undecided and we're happening trying to help them transition into those programs. And, you know, with advising, we spent a lot of time with students, obviously trying to help guide them. We don't, when they're in their programs, the humanities and the general education people don't necessarily advise them directly. Although I do have students come back, you know, depending on how their semester is going. But we, we try to be knowledgeable of what the students are getting into. At least for me, when I came here, I decided to ask the programs. What is it that your students have not been getting from the classes you think they need? What is it that's changing in your accreditations that you think they should have? I've tried to do that, when I was in the sciences. And even now, I, have a better understanding because I've been taking the classes but, but my goal is to teach the students things that are going to benefit them. I don't, I'm not interested in just teaching them things just to teach them. You must memorize this. That's not my goal. And from what I can tell, my colleagues are very similar in that. So yeah, we try to understand the programs because then we can do a better job relating the material to the students interests. 00:08:19 Carlos Ramos: Was that your experience at previous institutions? Is that, so it's not even really common that you see that in others? 00:08:26 Brian McKeon: No, I have not. Penn College is, is pretty cool. We go out of our way to hire people who were experts in their fields. And we don't require research. Our sole focus is teaching. So you get in the majors, you get people who did those jobs and worked really hard at those jobs and became good at those jobs. And now they're passing that information on. That's really cool. But we also get to focus entirely on teaching. So we don't have to make half of our salary or half of our load in research. And to me, that's a big deal because when you're an expert in your field and you get to focus all your energy on teaching your passion, I think that makes for a really good combination. 00:09:06 Sumer Beatty: So have you taken classes in every school or every, I'm curious how, when I look at the classes that you've taken, they're all over the place. How do you determine which classes to take? Are you trying to just kind of dip your toe in every area? Or is it, oh, this instructor, I'm curious what they have to say, I want to learn more about. What they have to say. Is it subject area? 00:09:32 Brian McKeon: Yeah, combination. So, the first requirement is they have to fit my teaching schedule. And I always teach the maximum that I'm allowed to teach. So, that narrows it down. I would love to take automotive classes, welding classes, construction stuff. I've taught myself a little bit of all those things, but I'd rather learn from the experts. But with their block scheduling, it generally doesn't fit my schedule. If my schedule changes in the future, then that might be something, but it would have to be consistent. So originally it was schedule. I got a paralegal degree when I was here, before the programs changed. So I really liked that. And then after that, I was, I actually got into the, hospitality program, culinary hospitality. But right after I started that, they switched to eight week schedules, eight week blocks, or shortly after that. And that didn't, because their classes were longer now during the day. It just, made it impossible for me to keep taking those. 00:10:26 Carlos Ramos: I was gonna say, I think they're in there from like 8 a. m. until 10 o'clock at night. 00:10:30 Brian McKeon: Right, because of their lectures and long labs, because it, who knew you can't bake a cake in five minutes. Their scheduling is such that they need those times, and it makes perfect sense for the program, it just doesn't work out for me to teach and make money. and, and teachings first, right? If I'm not doing my job, then it's a waste of time for me to be in class anyway in terms of the college's perspective. And that makes sense to me. So it's what fits my schedule. But I also, for some reason, when I was really young, I developed this idea that I could do anything that I, whatever I put my mind to, I could do. So there is a side of me that thinks, well, I want to see if I can do that. Well, I want to see if I can do that. And, So, so far I've been able to, well, I'm sure there'll be things I can't do, but I haven't found them yet. 00:11:17 Sumer Beatty: There's a good challenge. 00:11:18 Carlos Ramos: I think that's a fantastic mindset. 00:11:20 Sumer Beatty: Yes. 00:11:20 Carlos Ramos: I mean, barring any physical limitations that someone would have. I mean, the, and the brain has its own, but barring any of those limitations, I, yeah, it all comes down to mindset. 00:11:31 Brian McKeon: Yeah, so the Psychology now talks a lot about growth mindset. We used to think fixed. We used to think your intelligence is your intelligence. That's all you have. And you can't change it. But growth mindset now we know that the more you use it or lose it, right? From biology. So the more you use your brain, the better it is. And I like taking classes from different, Programs. One, I can relate to the students, but the connections, I cannot tell you. I've lost track of the number of times where I'd learn something in class. I'd then go and teach lecture because I'm usually, you know, in class one way or another and during lecture, something that I'd been learning in class reminds is, comes up in my mind as I'm talking about something. I can use that as a new analogy because I just learned it. So, the, it may come easier to me than others, I don't know, but I think anyone can learn anything. What varies is how much effort you have to put into it versus how much I put into it. That's, I think, what's different. Any of us can learn anything. I tell my students the only difference between me and them is that I've been doing it for my entire life, and they're a lot younger than I am. They can be me if they believe that they can be me. They won't be exactly me, but they can do it, and so I try to tell them that. 00:12:45 Carlos Ramos: Do you find as you get older it becomes, and you expand that knowledge and what you've learned, does it become easier to learn new things, or do you run up against age related learning deficiencies? 00:12:59 Brian McKeon: I haven't noticed any age related issues in terms of learning. Somewhat cheating, I guess. I've always been able to remember most of what I read the first time I read it, not necessarily verbatim, but certainly content and ideas. What I've found, though, is that taking the different classes has given me new perspectives, new angles, and so, yes, the more I study, the easier it becomes because, oh, this reminds me of this in biology. This reminds me of this in philosophy. This reminds me of the paralegal. Oh, we did this in food, in food class, the food 101 or whatever the number is. mise en place, everything in its place was one of the first things they teach you. And I use that in everything. If I'm going to do work on my car, if I'm going to get ready for class, if like... I like having my syllabi set for the semester and I work, I spend hours on syllabi, trying to get everything. What do I want to teach? When do I want to teach it? How am I going to fix what I did last time? Once I have the syllabus, mise en place, everything is placed, I can teach. It's not a big deal. I have no stress after that. I spend hours trying to figure out what I want in terms of my schedule of topics. So yeah, applying things from different topic areas, I think is fun. And I feel more well rounded in that sense. I don't want to be narrow minded. I like having a broader perspective. 00:14:23 Sumer Beatty: Have you been sitting in class or pursuing a subject area and thought, Oh, maybe I should do this. Maybe I should change my life's work to culinary or I mean, something else that you might be studying. 00:14:37 Brian McKeon: Yeah, I think that all the time. My dad was a high school English and math teacher, and he used to come home not in the best of moods, depending on students, so I never wanted to teach. I said that was the one thing I will never do, and that didn't last very long. So, for a long time, I didn't want to teach, because I wanted to explore the world, do other things, and I was worried about getting bored, which is probably one of the reasons why I try to teach as many classes on campus as well and take things, so I don't get bored. But, I was going to originally go to med school when I was an undergrad, but I held my first son and realized I'd never see him. So I just changed my mind on that one. And then, because I never wanted to teach, I always thought, Oh, maybe I'll do this. Oh, maybe I'll do this. And I get interested in it and I learn it quickly. And I'm like, Oh, that was fun. Well, maybe I'll try this. So I have those thoughts, but I think I like the challenge of learning something new. And once I learn it to a place where I'm competent, at least to some degree, then I get bored with that as a, like, that's not going to work for me as a full time job. So teaching actually is perfect for me at this college because I can take as many classes as I want and, and learn from different faculty. So I think ultimately, even though it wasn't my intention, I ended up in the perfect job. 00:15:59 Sumer Beatty: And you're not bored. 00:16:00 Brian McKeon: No, I try really hard not to be. I'm actually not very pleasant to be around when I'm bored. My mind, sort of eats me alive. It needs to be constantly working. And if I'm not physically doing something, my mind is constantly going. and then if I have no challenges ahead of me, I start to get irritable. You can ask my wife. 00:16:23 Sumer Beatty: That's great. 00:16:24 Carlos Ramos: How many courses that are on campus right now that you have not taken? 00:16:28 Brian McKeon: Probably a lot. I had to drop out of culinary because of the changes. I got into business administration for a while. I did the chemical dependency certificate. I had the paralegal degree. So right now I've only got 97 credits from Penn College in the time I've been here. So there's a lot I haven't taken. But again, block scheduling's a big deal. I was teaching the PA program for a while and I was, What I did there is I sat through all the classes so that I could always add in the molecular biology aspects of the medicine and the disease processes in addition to the classes I taught. So I, I thought about doing that. I was going to do the part time nursing program. When they started doing that in the evenings, it just, Life changes at home made it, not convenient at the moment, but I may eventually get back to that. So there's still a lot for me to do, thankfully. 00:17:19 Sumer Beatty: Did I see you were teaching an emergency management class too? 00:17:22 Brian McKeon: Yeah. So, as a molecular biologist and a microbiologist, I used to teach micro and gen bio here. And when the emergency management program first began being developed, Cliff Coppersmith was the dean at the time in my school. I actually was on the committee to help design the whole thing. And then bioterrorism was one of the courses we had to have. So I designed that, wrote it, because that's stuff that I've done. And so I just taught that for the first time this fall. We finally are up to that point. So, and I'll be doing it again this fall. 00:17:55 Sumer Beatty: You like that? That's engaging? 00:17:57 Brian McKeon: I would say, in the sciences, microbiology is my absolute favorite. That was my passion for a really long time, both with the HIV research and then teaching. So that's really, in the sciences, that's my favorite. I could do micro in my sleep, and so bioterrorism's great. And I also, when I first came here, I joined a fire company, so I became a volunteer fire, I was a firefighter and I went through all the training. I had interior one and two so I could fight fires and then I got into forestry and I did forest firefighting and I did forestry for a number of years. Life changes and then I had less time for it. But all of that to say, I had a, a lot of training in emergency management. I became an EMT. I was the fire company president for a few years. I was a lieutenant. And so I have sort of real world basic experience with emergency management. And then I'm a microbiologist. So I really enjoy that class because I get to combine both backgrounds. I wasn't just having to learn something new from scratch to teach it. I was actually, I have some experience in that. 00:19:02 Carlos Ramos: You know, I got in today with a lot of energy and now I'm feeling tired already. 00:19:08 Sumer Beatty: No, I think it's just exhausting. I was just imagining what your resume might look like. I know you've been here for quite some time, so you've probably not brushed up your resume, but I bet it'd be like 25 pages long. 00:19:20 Brian McKeon: No, because then people won't read it. So I just put the highlights. 00:19:24 Sumer Beatty: I would interview you just to meet you. Honestly, if I saw the resume, I'd be like, we just have to have him in to talk to him. I mean, there's something there for sure. 00:19:32 Brian McKeon: No, it's, I try to keep it short because no one likes to read past the first page. 00:19:36 Sumer Beatty: That's what they say, but I mean, I think yours would be pretty interesting. 00:19:40 Brian McKeon: It could be. There's 00:19:41 Sumer Beatty: not natural connections to most people from one to the next. 00:19:44 Brian McKeon: Yeah, that is true. I, most people tend to specialize in an area. They're interested in one area, they specialize in that area, and I think that's, that's natural. There's, something different about me, I guess. 00:19:55 Sumer Beatty: Well, I think you are in a unique advantage helping your children, you said you have children, determine what career path they're going to take because you come at it from all this. You have this background of all different specialties. Has that been helpful? I don't know how your, how old your children are, but I'm just thinking, Oh, from a parent perspective. 00:20:13 Brian McKeon: Sure. So, from my first marriage, we had four sons. I came, when I came here in 2005, my oldest was nine, and then I think I had six, five, and three. And, one of the things I liked about Penn College is they could take classes for free too. And so The three of them have graduated from here and are working semi related fields. They have various interests as well. My youngest is here now in automotive. He's 21, 22, something like that. So, that was pretty cool, but for me raising them, the mindset I've always had was that it's not do as I say, not as I do. It's me modeling the behaviors I wanted them to have. So I've never told them. They, none of them were required to go to college. I said, you can do what you want. I, you need to find your own path. I can't find it for you. But I tried to model the behaviors of, Hey, I work hard. Hey, you're never going to need anything as long as I'm able to work. So I'm going to provide for you. And this is how I think you should take care of a family. You know, I try to demonstrate those things. And even I have three step sons. And, and even with them, I try to do the same as much as possible. Try to, I was just talking to my youngest yesterday. He's like, how come when you cook, you do the dishes and when mom cooks, you do the dishes? And I said, well, I'm trying to show you that when you care for someone, you do your best to take care of them. And it's easy to do. And it's something I can do for her that she doesn't want to do. So I think modeling the behavior is the best way. They're sponges. That's the best way for them to learn. And you can tell them to your blue in the face, don't do that. But if you do it, they're going to do it. 00:21:58 Sumer Beatty: And there's some crossover into the classroom too. So I'm sure you have some students that are seeing your interest in all of these areas. And like you said, I can do it. So you can do it. 00:22:08 Brian McKeon: I try. Yeah. I start class that way. And When students feel like, Oh, this is too much work to do, or I don't have time to do this or that. I try to say, Hey, look, I'm still in class. I'm working full time and I'm still taking classes and I still have a family and I still have things to do at home. If I can do it, you can do it is what I try to tell them. But I try to model that behavior. And I've also enjoyed, you asked earlier, I like taking classes from other people I know. So I have taken classes specifically with people like Dr. Miller, for example, who teaches history and other things. And, and also, Professor Derr. I really, I had him in paralegal, but I've taken his business law classes and other things after that degree. I like interacting with people that I know and respect. I want to see how they teach. So yeah, I try to model that behavior. I think that's the best way to help other people, rather than telling them what to do, helping them find their way, but by modeling it. 00:23:07 Sumer Beatty: So, have you heard of the website RateMyProfessor? 00:23:10 Brian McKeon: I 00:23:10 Carlos Ramos: have. 00:23:11 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, so one of your popular tags is that you're hilarious. 00:23:14 Carlos Ramos: Oh, really? 00:23:14 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. Do you believe that? 00:23:19 Brian McKeon: I try. I'm fairly sarcastic, but again, I learned early on. I like being funny. Who doesn't? But I learned early on that being boring and dry does not really help students learn. So, when I first started teaching, I don't remember what I was reading, but I was reading up on teaching and different techniques. And, you know, forcing people to memorize things, isn't really the best. Instead, what you want to do is have context. And so I'm really interested in biology and automatic memories. There are events, I know exactly where I was when the planes hit the towers 9-11. And if you're old enough, you do, too, just like our parents said, I know where I was when JFK was shot. So, those automatic memories, if you've ever, remember high school where you had some song, I remember songs that were playing in high school at the time, and I, I haven't heard them in decades, but as soon as the song comes on randomly on the radio, I remember all these key events from that senior year. So I learned early on that automatic memories are really important, and so I try to make sure that every class has at least one automatic memory, something they can't forget because then when they're studying they can say, wait a minute, Oh, that's right. He stood up on the desk for this. And then that ties the, they help, helps them remember the lectures. At least that's my theory. No one's told me it doesn't help. But, so I try to have automatic memories and I think humor goes a long way with that. It's how you connect with people. 00:24:44 Sumer Beatty: Oh, they've remembered that. I saw somewhere, were you at the Community Arts Center, Community Theater League performing? 00:24:50 Brian McKeon: Yeah. 00:24:51 Sumer Beatty: So, I'm just drawing that connection from jumping onto the desk to jumping onto the stage. Yep. Are you still doing that or is that something that? 00:24:58 Brian McKeon: I haven't in, the last couple years. 00:25:00 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:25:00 Brian McKeon: It's about two years ago that I was in my last play. So I got into it. I was doing plays a lot. My teaching schedule then was more nights and I was department head in science for I guess about six years But that allowed me to do some things outside of a normal schedule. So I would actually build sets I worked for a year or two at the league building sets and then being in some of the plays and I think while I was there I've been in eight, ten plays, something like that. 00:25:31 Sumer Beatty: What's your favorite? 00:25:32 Brian McKeon: My favorite one was, the second one there is Bedside Manner. Marie Fox was the director. Keith Wagner was in it with me. And I like comedies. I like farces, particularly British farces. So, I had a lot of fun doing that and I like physical humor. So my character had good lines, but I spent a lot of time trying to think of things that would really Complete the picture. So for that one, my character's name was Jeff and he, he was quiet, mild mannered, that sort of thing, but sort of a little geeky, a little bit off. So I invented things for my character, like before, you know, the mistress, he's supposed to be, sleeping with it. He's, he's never done this before. You know, he's quickly vacuuming his hotel room right before she comes in or he comes out of the bathroom. I had toilet paper on my shoe by accident. I'm hopping around trying to get rid of it. So, I like those physical comedy types of things. I was asked to be Charlie Chaplin when the Genetti had their anniversary. So, I got to walk around as Charlie Chaplin. I didn't talk to anyone the whole time and, and that sort of thing. So, I had a lot of fun with that. So, I like the physical comedies. 00:26:44 Sumer Beatty: So is there a connection between the performance in the classroom and the performance on stage? 00:26:50 Brian McKeon: Sure. Classroom's all about performance. It's all about getting their attention, helping them make connections, helping them, see things in a different light. I think humor's a big part of that. I'm not afraid to make a fool of myself if necessary. My mouth is sometimes or most times faster than my brain. So some sarcastic comments may come out along the way. But it's, it's a performance in that sense. And so that's really helped me, not be afraid in class and not, you know, Not worry about public speaking or that sort of thing. It's acting. At least that's how I got into it. I'm much more comfortable now, but in the very beginning when I was nervous about, man, what do I do in the class? I quickly realized it was about acting. First semester I taught, I read notes off of my notes and I did not enjoy that at all. And so I said, that's it. I will never teach class again that way. And so I always memorize my notes before class and not verbatim, but you know, the content came easier over time, but I refuse to sit and read my notes or read off a PowerPoint. It just is not natural for me. 00:27:56 Sumer Beatty: And so that overcoming of fear is probably a reason why some people don't take the chance and try to learn something new or go into an area they're not familiar with. They're afraid of looking stupid, maybe. 00:28:08 Brian McKeon: Yeah, I think they are. In philosophy, I spent a lot of time studying epistemology, which is the study of knowledge, and ultimately we can't really know anything. We're finite, and we are gathering information from the world around us, but it's incomplete. We're biologically wired to take a couple pieces of information and make fast decisions. That's why we're alive. You can't get all of the information on wind speed and temperature and number of cars and pedestrians when you're trying to cross the street, so you just go with a couple quick things. Do I have enough time to run across? So this is interesting because on the one hand, because we're really good at that pattern recognition. We feel like we know stuff that we don't, right? If I asked you how a flashlight worked, you could probably tell me the basics. But if I start asking you more details, it's in psychology, it's called the illusion of explanatory depth. We feel like we understand things that we don't really understand. Or if I ask you, do you know anything about a car? Oh, yeah, I can put gas in. I know how to change my oil. Do you understand how the ignition system works? The electrical system? We don't understand those things. We feel like, Oh, I can, I can tell you about cars, but we can't unless we've studied that. And so what's interesting to me is that we feel like we should know stuff because our brains are wired for that and pattern recognition. We, we make quick decisions, but we also at the same time recognize there's a lot we don't know. And that makes us nervous because when you don't know something biologically, that's a threat to your survival. And we generally try to avoid threats to our survival. And so I think that's why students get nervous. But I think if I can encourage them to take on new challenges, learn new things, say, Hey, look, I'm not asking you to do something I haven't done. I'm still learning. If I can move them past that fear of not knowing and help them realize, look, none of us know anything, to be honest with you. The information we have is what we currently know, but it's, you know, we have It changes all the time, right? That's the nice part about being a scientist is I'm not tied to any one idea. This is what we know now. I'm okay if it changes tomorrow. My beliefs are fairly fluid because of that. And I think if I can encourage students to start thinking that way that they lose that fear, they realize it's not an actual threat to their survival, and that in fact it's for their benefit to take risks and that sort of thing. 00:30:25 Sumer Beatty: Do you think students at Penn College are more receptive to that idea of just not having a fixed mindset and learning new things versus other inst the other institution you were at? Just generally speaking, I think just my interactions with students here, they're very engaged and passionate and they ask questions. They're problem solvers, which I, I don't think is universal. 00:30:49 Brian McKeon: I don't think it is. In terms of previous institutions, it's been 20 years. So part of it is. The students I had then are not the students we have today. As Carlos and I were talking about earlier, the students we have today were raised with electronics, the students 20 years ago were not. So those kinds of things change. The students here are very inquisitive, and what I've found is that even with the latest generation of students, certainly after the pandemic, students, you know, When I, before the pandemic, there would be a lot of student interaction, talking in class, that sort of thing before when I'd first walk in. Since the pandemic, there's very little of that, certainly on the first couple days of class. And so I started reading about it and, you know, everyone has their ideas on this current generation of students and what they're comfortable with, what they prefer. I know they prefer technology. I know they prefer this. They prefer that. I just decided to ask my students, and every class I've asked has said, no, we want one on one interaction, but we don't, because we missed out on a lot of that, it, we, again, it's threat to survival. They feel safer behind a phone, but they would prefer the one on one interaction. So I think that. What our students want. It's probably what all students want is they want someone to take an interest in them and give them the opportunity, sort of guide them. This is how you start these conversations. And so in the beginning of class, I like forcing them to meet their neighbors so that they at least have a contact, Hey, I missed notes. What do I do? You know, do you have anything? But once I started focusing more on that, rather than assuming I understood the generation from when I read, but actually learning about them from what they. have told me I have seen an increase in student interaction and more willing to, to step out of their shell and they don't, it's not that they don't text anymore, but they can now have one on one conversations with classmates, which had dissipated significantly from what I'd seen in the past. So I think it's just a matter of honestly seeing everyone as a valuable human who is worthy of your time and attention. 00:33:00 Sumer Beatty: So you are doing research. 00:33:02 Brian McKeon: I experiment all the time. 00:33:03 Sumer Beatty: Okay. Okay. 00:33:04 Brian McKeon: But I experiment on myself trying to be better at life. 00:33:09 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:33:09 Brian McKeon: And, but I, I have found that in running those experiments on myself, that part of that is, Hey, I should ask people questions about themselves and get to know them, because that'll help them. Right. My interest is really in helping people. What's the best way I can do that? And so what I've found at least recently is getting to know people, letting them. Interact with me at a more human level. Actually, I guess I've known that for quite a while. When I first started teaching, I think the first semester I wore a shirt and tie. 00:33:36 Sumer Beatty: He's not wearing a shirt and tie today, but he did say he dressed up. I am wearing a shirt. He is wearing a shirt a nice flannel shirt. 00:33:43 Brian McKeon: There you go. 00:33:43 Sumer Beatty: Yes. 00:33:44 Brian McKeon: So, early on in teaching, I had an 8 a. m. anatomy and physiology class, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, 8 to 9. Monday morning, the students were abuzz about their weekend. Friday morning, they were abuzz about their weekend. Wednesday, dead. And this was a lecture that had 120 students in it when I taught in Binghamton. And I had taken the kids to an amusement park, Darien Lake at the time, and they had the Superman ride. And I had, I'd always grown up loving superheroes, and I had a Superman shirt with a cape from that. And I'm like, what am I going to do? The 8 a. m. class on Wednesdays is just dead there. They're barely, in fact, literally no questions. They wouldn't ask questions. They wouldn't do anything. So by about week four, I was getting tired of that. And so, I, it was, must've been spring semester. I had a sweater on, like I usually wear sweaters then. And I was in the middle of lecture, and I said Wait a minute, did you hear that? And they weren't really paying attention. I said, Hang on, I'll be right back. I took off my glasses, whipped off my sweater. I had a shirt and cape on. I went out the bottom door, ran all the way around, came down the top door. Must have taken me like 15 seconds. And I said, I apologize, woman, cat in a tree. I had to help her real quick. They never slept in class again. And what I realized was, me being a stuffy professor wasn't my style, so I wore superhero shirts for decades. Again, about connection. 00:35:11 Sumer Beatty: So do you have one on under this flannel? 00:35:14 Brian McKeon: Oh. So, COVID came around, and then I started wearing Arkham Asylum shirts, and I wore those for the next three years. Different colors. But I wore different Arkham Asylum shirts, and some Joker shirts, because the world was topsy turvy. And then when I moved over into the humanities, Jen Wahl, that you had on before said, you always wear the same shirt. I said, no, I don't. I wash them and they have different colors. You always wear the same shirt. So this past fall, I started wearing plain shirts just to mix it up. So today I have a plain shirt on. 00:35:51 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:35:51 Brian McKeon: I'm keeping my identity a secret. 00:35:53 Sumer Beatty: Okay, good. I like that. 00:35:57 Carlos Ramos: I'm like thinking through all the different ways that I might honor myself, I guess, in the classroom to help the students. Sure. I don't have anything to to share at the moment, but well, I think I'm gonna have to think about on this one. 00:36:09 Brian McKeon: I think that's important. I went to a couple teaching conferences early on because I wanted to learn things. And what I found was I didn't learn anything from the conferences. But when people would talk about the things they did in the classroom, I would think, oh, that's not something I can do, but that makes me think of this. I think conferences are useful not for me to imitate what you say, but to hear, this is why I like taking different classes, but to hear your ideas and think, oh, wait, I need to tweak that. I need to modify it, but that will have me down this path. And so, I think talking to people and seeing how people teach and learning how they teach is great, not for you to imitate, but for you to be true to yourself, what fits for you, what works for you. My teaching style is not going to work for anyone else because there's no other me. I don't have a twin. I don't have anyone with the same DNA. So everyone has to find their own path. But I think seeking to find what's authentically you and bringing that to the classroom. In my experience, that's what the students want. They want authentic professors. They don't want the, you must do this. This is what I say. This is what we all do. 00:37:16 Carlos Ramos: Yeah. It's funny when you mentioned about, you know, standing on the table to create that, that one memory. when I was teaching motorcycle safety and I was learning to become a, a trainer for other coaches and my peers and I, we were in a live classroom, our first class that we were teaching together to get our certification for as, as trainers. And it was just that, that your Wednesday morning experience, it was, oh my gosh, every, every one of my peers before me were taking the students further and further away from engagement with the material. And, you know, we, right before that class, we had all given ourselves identities, like, and I think I said Coyote Carlos, just, you know, off the cuff. And I'm like, okay, well, what would a coyote do here? What would Wile E. Coyote do here? What would any coyote do? And I did, I did that same thing. I jumped up on whatever chair or table I had. It was very rickety. It was completely unsafe for motorcycle safety course. And here I'm, I'm like, all right, everybody up, get up on your chairs. Yep. And it was, it was a moment that turned that entire class, not just for the students, but for my peers. Yep. For the trainers that were training us. and I think that's important. 00:38:38 Brian McKeon: It is. 00:38:39 Carlos Ramos: To step out. 00:38:40 Brian McKeon: You got them engaged. you got them out of the routine. We all get bored with routine. That's why swiping on your phone is so addictive, because we are wired for novelty. And so if everyone's following the same pattern, you're going to lose them immediately. Even class, I mean, we like consistency in how we're grading, but classes can't just be the same all the time. Unfortunately, we start losing them faster. So I think you're right. And I think that was definitely a watershed moment. Two things. One, I gave my valedictorian speech in high school on Wile E. Coyote and how we should see the world. And two, I should mention that when I jumped up on the table, I was wearing a kilt that day. And because I'm Scott Irish, and I was doing it the traditional way. And I didn't think about it until after I was on the table. So if in fact you decide to jump up again, don't be wearing a kilt. Commando. Unnecessary risk, as always. 00:39:36 Carlos Ramos: Did we take the photo for this episode yet? 00:39:38 Sumer Beatty: We already 00:39:39 Brian McKeon: did. And I don't have my kilt on. I have one at home. 00:39:41 Sumer Beatty: A kilt with a superhero shirt would be a good... You can always come back. 00:39:45 Brian McKeon: I can come back. 00:39:46 Sumer Beatty: For a retake, yeah. I think we'll release this next semester, right? 00:39:49 Carlos Ramos: Yeah, it'll be in the fall. 00:39:50 Sumer Beatty: So we have some time. 00:39:51 Carlos Ramos: We're recording this in the summer for those who are listening to it now. 00:39:55 Brian McKeon: Will you, tell me when you want me to come back and I will be properly attired. 00:39:59 Sumer Beatty: Okay. That's great. 00:40:03 Carlos Ramos: You have a list of questions there. I don't, have we gotten to any of 'em? 00:40:06 Sumer Beatty: No, but we're trying to be a little bit more ad-lib with our conversation and not rely on strict question asking. So I feel like... 00:40:14 Brian McKeon: Fine by me. 00:40:14 Sumer Beatty: I mean, my goal was to get to know you. 00:40:17 Brian McKeon: I appreciate it 00:40:17 Sumer Beatty: And I think that we're getting there. So I feel like we've asked many of these questions. I don't know that. 00:40:22 Carlos Ramos: Which course of yours do Sumer and I need to go sit in on? And the rest of our audience, for that matter. 00:40:28 Brian McKeon: So I'm working on developing a philosophy minor. I actually, I've been the only Ph. D. in philosophy on campus for the last, well, since George Matthews left maybe 15 years ago. But I'm finally over in the program, over in humanities full time now so I can work on these things. So I've been working on a philosophy minor. one of the courses I have is the philosophy of science and religion. I'm actually teaching again this fall. And I think you'd really like that. I spent a long time, studying religion. Of course, I'm a scientist. And so we, and a variety as a philosopher, I try to study as many different ideologies as I can. So I've studied both traditional quote Western, which is really, European and Greek philosophy, some American philosophy, also, Eastern philosophy, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, that sort of thing. But science and religion is, probably one of my favorite courses now that I get to teach, and I think you'd really like that. 00:41:25 Sumer Beatty: When is it? 00:41:26 Brian McKeon: it's this fall. It's 5 to 6:30. We have, I don't know, 20, 25 students, but you're welcome anytime. I'm gonna look, I'm gonna look, see if it's science 00:41:35 Sumer Beatty: and religion, not philosophy. It's 00:41:37 Brian McKeon: philosophy of science and religion. It's PHL 231. 00:41:40 Sumer Beatty: So I've taken philosophy of religion, not here, but at another institution. 00:41:44 Brian McKeon: Which would be different. 00:41:45 Sumer Beatty: Different. Okay. 00:41:46 Brian McKeon: There is a little bit of philosophy of religion, but it's more about the intersection between science and religion because there are different modality or different mindsets on how this works. Does religion inform us of the way the world is at a supernatural level and science at the physical level only? In other words, do they not overlap? Do they overlap? If you are extremely religious, then you would think, well, no, the, well, in this country, the majority would be, say, Christian, so it would be most, most students would be familiar with the Bible, but the Quran, the Bible, any of those ancient texts, the Tao Te Ching, tell us not only about our spiritual lives, but also our physical lives. Should, should religion inform science? Should science inform religion? Should they have nothing to do with each other? Should they fight? Should they leave each other alone? These are all important questions. And of course, surprise, surprise, everyone disagrees on what the answer should be. So really great information for discussion. 00:42:45 Sumer Beatty: And then how many days a week is that? 00:42:47 Brian McKeon: It's Tuesday, Thursday nights, 5 to 6:30. You're welcome. I also have ethics. I do like teaching ethics as well. This semester for ethics, I have a book. It's called The Stone Reader. It's, the New York Times would have a Stone edition where you'd have opinions written in by by people, and they collected all the philosophers who wrote about moral topics. And so they're relatively short chapters, but it covers a wide range of modern everyday topics. And so that book is actually going to be a lot of fun. So you might enjoy that. In sociology, I'm using Harari's 21 Lessons for the 21st Century. which I really like because for Harari, he points out, and he wrote this, I think it came out in 2018, but he's like, Hey, AI is going to change the way you do everything. It's not necessarily the science fiction way of Skynet, although I guess that's possible, but it's more of. If AI can do our jobs better than us, then AI is going to do that. And we're eventually going to get to a place where people are constantly retraining. I'm probably the only person on the planet that looks forward to that. And after that, it's going to be, Hey, AI can, and robot, it really, we're waiting for robotics to catch up as I understand it. But as that gets better and better, we're looking at how do people earn money? They're not going to have jobs because AI and robotics can do it better eventually, so we're already talking about things like a universal basic income. Those are really a big deal. In fact, the second chapter of the book is called Work. And so I think it's important for incoming students to know, hey, you're learning these degrees. I'm glad you are. We really need hands on people. But you may want to at least have a mindset, a growth mindset of, hey, This may not be all I do the rest of my life. There may be other things that I need to do based on the way society changes. So I think you'd like any of those actually. 00:44:37 Carlos Ramos: Do you think our institutions, our governments, our religions, commerce, commerce probably of the three would be the one that would move along quickest, but do you think these others can move along fast enough to keep pace with the changes that are happening in technology? 00:44:54 Brian McKeon: Unfortunately, what I think is that because of the way government works and having to get people to agree to a consensus, which is not easy, especially given the current divide in our ideologies. Although if you talk to Dr. Miller, our ideologies have been divided for as long as we've been a country. We always feel like, oh, this is the worst it's ever been. No, it's been this way. But things do not move fast. You have to get. For whether state or federal you have to get House and Senate to agree on something with all of the provisions Then you have to get the governor or the president to sign it nor they get revised these things take time we have no regulations in place for AI the use of AI the development of AI and so usually Human history indicates that we, especially scientists, we think, Oh, let's see if I can do this. And we do it and we think, Oh, that's great. And then we find out all the negative side effects. And then we think, you know, we should have some laws to regulate that. And in my experience, and my colleagues will correct me, I'm sure because my numbers aren't probably super accurate, but you're looking at a decade or two. before we have legislation come around that sort of regulates that. But by then the genie's out of the bottle. So I think that at least in terms of AI, my suspicion is we're in the wild west and you know, eventually we'll have rules and regulations. But genie's out of the bottle. We're gonna, we're just sort of on a bull ride. We've got to hang on and see what happens. 00:46:27 Carlos Ramos: Do you think that this particular bull ride will be rougher than, let's say, the internet? And I think the biggest thing that we think of at the onset of the internet was the bubble that happened six years, seven years later. Is there a corollary here? 00:46:40 Brian McKeon: Yeah, so, technology is rapidly advancing at an exponential rate, right? So we have exponential growth here. Our brains are still wired for the Savannah. We are wired genetically for, you know, groups of 50 to 150 tops. We still deal with, normal biology that we've had forever. So our ancestors and, and us as well, if, if you're on the Savannah and you see rustling in the, in the tall grass, our ancestors who thought, ah, it's just the wind. They got eaten and they didn't pass on their DNA. The ancestors like, Oh my God, lion. And they ran away. Whether it was a lion or not, they live and they passed on their DNA. So that's why we jump at loud noises, right? Anything that's a threat to our survival, we, we jump into fight or flight mode, right? So our brains are not wired for the modern age. And with the rapid advances in technology, we're not going to evolve fast enough to naturally keep up with that. So what's interesting is, That we see that it's very easy from studying psychology and then using that in casinos and then using the casino model and smartphones. We know how to take advantage of people's biology and use that to make money, but that doesn't help us evolve and keep up. So we already live in a, a cognitive dissonance where we've got the physical world and we have our mental world. And that's hard on the brain because the physical world rarely lines up with the way we think should be in our minds and the way we think they are in our minds. I think you and I are great friends and I come to find out we're not, right? We're surprised by this because pattern recognition makes us think we know what we're doing. Now we have the digital world. And so now our brains are torn between our inner world, our physical world, and our physical world. outer physical world and our digital lives. And so as we continue, and now, of course, with Elon Musk's Neuralink, we're starting to bring those things together in new ways. Technology is rapidly advancing. Scientists, computer scientists, we're asking, can we do this? Not should we do this? And so again, I think that it's going to be a challenge to keep up. I think that the, the internet was a big deal. But then over time, I think now, The current numbers are that 65 percent of the internet is AI generated. Basically, if you want to make money, you use AI to rewrite an article from the Wall Street Journal, put it on your server with your advertising so that people come to your link and make, you make money that way. But it's AI generated. The, I'm not a computer expert, but I believe that they train the learning language models on, some years worth of, of internet, whatever the internet's there, there's a lot of garbage on the internet, right? So if you have people saying, Oh, there was no Holocaust, AI has that as part of its information. And again, if you don't know the answer to what you're looking up, then you don't know that what you found is right or wrong. Cause if you have no clue, right? If, if I'm looking something up that I have no experience with, I have no idea if the answers I'm seeing are real or if they're made up. So. We have some, some serious issues because AI and learning language models are learning very, very quickly how to interact with us. I say learning in quotes. But they're learning from all of the web. The web doesn't represent reality. It represents people's ideas of reality, and it never used to be that we took anyone's ideas of reality and counted them as accurate equally. We used to think, no, no, there's, there's a way and a model and a process by which we gather accurate information and there's, right, there's a difference between a hypothesis, which is an educated guess in science, and a conspiracy theory, which is an uneducated guess because we don't have enough information. My concern is that as we keep doing things, can we do this as we keep doing those things? Well, historically, we always find out, maybe we shouldn't have done that. Steroids used to be a great way to build muscle until we realized it wasn't. So yeah, human history suggests that we're going to keep trying to push the boundaries of what we can do and then later figure out whether or not we should have and how to deal with the ramifications. So I'm not convinced, and it's getting faster. So I'm not convinced that we're... I'm not saying that's It's wrong to do it that way, but there will be casualties along the way, as there always are in different forms. 00:51:14 Carlos Ramos: How does, I was going to say a young person, but really it's really any person, that, that information now, the search engine that I use, and it's not the big one, is now having an AI generated article on my search that tries to summarize it for me, which I find pretty helpful. 00:51:32 Brian McKeon: Sure. 00:51:32 Carlos Ramos: But I also like to think that I have an informed mind and I have a questioning mind and that I'm not going to take that verbatim as is, but where does someone go to get the information? We've told college students don't trust everything on Wikipedia because anyone can add to it. But it's also human vetted. Where does, where does someone go? 00:51:51 Brian McKeon: Quickly about Wikipedia. I gave a talk on this to the faculty a couple years ago at the spring commencement. Even early in the days of Wikipedia, IBM ran some statistics. Yes, anyone can write, but the people who write about those topics are invested in those pages. And so what happens is that if someone went in there, there was a study, let's say, evolution is pretty controversial. So you have evolutionary scientists writing about evolution, and you would have people who didn't believe in evolution going on and changing the page. IBM study found that within five minutes, it was corrected. That was back in the nineties. So it's much faster today. So If an article from Wikipedia gives references, I think that's a big deal. References are important. And so it's, Wikipedia is not as flimsy as a lot of people feel like it is. I originally thought the same thing, but I decided to research it and, and the experts in the field are constantly keeping their pages intact. And when we were growing up, at least when I was growing up, since I'm fairly ancient, encyclopedias were all the rage. If you look at the average encyclopedia, it has a couple editors and a handful of people writing about all those topics. Why is a, an encyclopedia, let's say, let's say there's a total of a hundred people involved in an encyclopedia. Why should I trust that over a hundred people? Wikipedia, which has millions of people involved, people writing in their fields, like, if you're going to teach me about quantum mechanics, I'd like you to know something about quantum mechanics, not just that you read about quantum mechanics. That's the way encyclopedias were. We tend to do this as humans, right? Again, we can't gather all the information fast enough, and we need to pattern recognition, we need to quickly make decisions, and one of the things we easily latch onto, and I mean no disrespect, but one of the things we latch onto is, Oh, this was written by anyone can write it, right? But what we're missing, there's missing information. The missing information is yes, but the experts keep up with their pages because they care about their pages. Wikipedia requires people to have links. If there doesn't, if it doesn't have a link, it'll say citation needed. So if you have links that you can click on and go vet and you can see the papers, that's a big deal. Which brings me to my broader point. If you pay for your content, you're not the product. If you don't pay for your content, you're the product, right? And you should not trust things when you're the product. One of the nice things about college, and I think that the rush to AI and I've read many articles about how professors are going to be replacing that sort of thing. I think that we've been modified for sure. Professors ideally have studied their field, they're experts in their field. They're the Wikipedia expert. And. So professors can help teach students where to find valuable information, what information counts as accurate, what doesn't. These are the accepted principles. If you stick with these principles, in general, you're going to find this helpful. information to be accurate or inaccurate. So this is really the role I see for professors today. Again, as we were talking about earlier from Monty Python, in the beginning of the Holy Grail, they start arguing about which sparrows can fly, or which sparrows or swallows I can't remember. Oh, the, you know, the English swallow can carry a coconut husk at this speed and the African swallow can carry a coconut husk at this speed. We would just Google that, right? To find out. Can the bird fly that far carrying a coconut? I have no knowledge of these swallows or sparrows, and I have no idea if they can carry coconuts. In fact, I suspect it's just a joke. But if I go to Google, I'm going to pick the first couple answers and think, Oh, well, it says they can fly at 20 miles an hour. But if I don't know anything about it, I have no way of knowing if that's accurate. Charlie Brown could have paid a lot of money just to be at the top of the Google search. I don't know. So our jobs now, since everyone has access to all of this information, good and bad, our jobs is to help guide students in figuring out what information is valuable. And since we have been trained in the original information pre internet, we have a better chance of guiding them and saying, well, that is interesting. I hadn't heard that before, but, that jives with the stuff I already know. So maybe that's true. I'll do some research or that's interesting. I have not heard that before, but that doesn't line up at all with the biology I know or the philosophy I know. So there may be some issues there and it's our job to guide the students in that way, at least from my perspective. 00:56:20 Sumer Beatty: It all comes full circle because you said that you don't want to be self or you want to be self reliant and you don't want, you know, and you have that knowledge base to draw from that biology background or whatever other background that might be. So 00:56:32 Brian McKeon: I think that's important. I look, we're not ever going to be 100 percent self reliant. My students think, Oh, no, I can take care of myself in the end of the world. And I tell them, well, if you want nothing to do with society because we have this implicit social contract. I start every class in sociology and philosophy with, well, if you think you can be entirely self reliant and live out in the woods, because certainly in central Pennsylvania, we have plenty of outdoors people, that's fine, but don't take anything from society with you. So that means you have to start in the woods with nothing, no clothes, no food, nothing, and start from scratch. And what you find is, because why? Well, society manufactured the bullets. Even if you reloaded, they manufactured the lead. They manufactured the gunpowder. You didn't make your own. They manufactured the shell casings. You didn't harvest the brass and do all that. That's not even to mention the rifle or the shotgun. You didn't weave your own clothes. You didn't have your own sheep that you harvested the wool from and that you wove your own clothes with or the cotton. So you need to start from scratch. And so, of course, that's ridiculous. We don't ever want to go back to that. So we all rely on society at some level. Nonetheless, I think we should, I'm a fan of Emerson's essay, Self Reliance, actually, which you can get for free online. And, It is very much about, hey, you should do your best to take care of yourself. And I like that because, and that's why I like knowledge so much. I don't need to carry, ideally, 400 pounds of gear with me every day to survive life. I have the, my goal is to have the knowledge that doesn't matter what I have at hand when an emergency arises, I should be able to be able to handle it or to deal with it based on the knowledge because that's the one thing I can always keep with me. 00:58:08 Sumer Beatty: I can't think of a better way to close it down. 00:58:10 Brian McKeon: No. 00:58:11 Carlos Ramos: Thank you, Brian, for joining us. 00:58:13 Brian McKeon: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. 00:58:14 Sumer Beatty: That was really fun. Thank you. 00:58:15 Brian McKeon: I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. 00:58:19 Sumer Beatty: Thanks for hanging out with us today. 00:58:21 Carlos Ramos: Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. 00:58:25 Sumer Beatty: Check out our show notes for bookmarks to your favorite sections and links to resources that we mention in today's episode. 00:58:32 Carlos Ramos: You can also find past episodes and see what's on deck for upcoming ones at pct.edu/podcast. 00:58:38 Sumer Beatty: And of course we are open to your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions, so send those over at podcast@pct.edu. 00:58:47 Carlos Ramos: It's been real. 00:58:48 Sumer Beatty: Catch you next time. 00:58:52 Brian McKeon: Now, I want to be clear. I do not violate human rights principles in the classroom.