Jen Wahl & Gerry Kaplan: Hands-On Humanities

00:00:00 Sumer Beatty: Welcome to Tomorrow Makers, where we explore how we learn, live, work, and play now and in the future. I'm Sumer Beatty. 00:00:10 Carlos Ramos: And I'm Carlos Ramos. Hey, Sumer. 00:00:13 Sumer Beatty: Hey, welcome. 00:00:14 Carlos Ramos: Welcome. Episode 24. Am I counting right? 00:00:17 Sumer Beatty: I think so. That's, that's what you just told me before we started recording. 00:00:22 Carlos Ramos: I like the trust that you have here. Yeah. She's like, yeah, whatever number you just picked. 00:00:26 Sumer Beatty: I mean, whatever you do, you can always just switch the distribution around to make it work. 00:00:30 Carlos Ramos: The thing is I have to, you know, do some division in my head because we're, sometimes we say, Oh yeah, it's season two episode, I think in this case three. And so I have to do some math and then I come up with 24. 00:00:44 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. 00:00:45 Carlos Ramos: I think that worked. 00:00:46 Sumer Beatty: I think it works. You're not playing a joke on me, are you? 00:00:51 Carlos Ramos: No, I am not. But I should have been just based on the guests that we have today. 00:00:57 Sumer Beatty: I know I was trying and I told Carlos I really wanted to play a joke on you, but I just didn't have enough prep time. 00:01:01 Carlos Ramos: Like three months is what you require usually for prep, right? 00:01:05 Sumer Beatty: Right. Yes. , I guess I need to up my game here. Well, we're teeing up. We have Jen Wahl and Gerry Kaplan with us, two of our humanities instructors here at Penn College, and oh my goodness, they have a history. 00:01:18 Carlos Ramos: They do. And how much history you get to hear really depends on once I go back through and, and edit this thing, how much I get to keep. 00:01:26 Sumer Beatty: I don't know, I was listening to it yesterday and at the end it said thanks for keeping it PG, so I think we might be okay. 00:01:31 Carlos Ramos: Did we make it? 00:01:32 Sumer Beatty: I, I feel like, at least I thought we did at the end. I don't know. 00:01:36 Carlos Ramos: It must have been after I hit, stopped hitting the record that things got a little wild. 00:01:39 Sumer Beatty: Okay, yeah, that's the case. So they are both, past high school teachers. They were both nominated for State Teacher of the Year, and then they started at Penn College as adjunct instructors and then became full time instructors. They also did some international exchange programs together as well. So, Jen will say, Gerry just followed me around this whole time. So I think it worked out for the both of them though. 00:02:08 Carlos Ramos: And for Penn College. 00:02:09 Sumer Beatty: Oh, yes. 00:02:10 Carlos Ramos: You know, we, you know, Penn College, Applied Technologies. I think there's a distinction here that we need to make about, you know, how we fit in the whole landscape of higher education. We've got the two-year degrees and the four-year degrees. Most of our students do end up graduating, we graduate more with the bachelor's, but when they come in, a lot of them come in more with the associates in mind, or at least they declare that. And they had the bachelor's in mind and they have to go back. Anyway, that's a whole different thing. But these two, as well as many of our other faculty aren't in those, you know, majors that, that those applied technology majors. So why, why, why these two? 00:02:50 Sumer Beatty: Well, so if you remember back to episode two, we had Dr. Craig Miller on here and he was a very popular guest. We had so much fun with him. And so when we were considering who do we have on next? I asked Craig, who do you recommend? And without a hesitation, he was like, you have to have Jen and Gerry on the podcast. They have such a great dynamic. They love to play practical jokes on each other. And they didn't disappoint. I honestly don't know if we even needed to be in the podcast because I feel like they just were riffing back and forth on each other and we just kind of enjoyed the show. And 00:03:27 Carlos Ramos: you know just to hear the way they conduct their classrooms as well. They're bringing out that whole student that you may not find in a you know someone who's just trades focused much like you'd find in a liberal arts school. So I kind of, the "best of" blend here. 00:03:41 Sumer Beatty: I loved their responses to why Do I need to take philosophy or psychology, psychology rather? Why do I need to take psychology or why do I need to take ceramics, which is what Gerry teaches? And their answers were spectacular. 00:03:56 Carlos Ramos: They were. 00:03:56 Sumer Beatty: Listen for those. 00:03:58 Carlos Ramos: So let's just get into it. 00:03:59 Sumer Beatty: Okay. 00:04:00 Carlos Ramos: All right. Well, Jen and Gerry on Tomorrow Makers. You said you don't behave when you're together. 00:04:13 Gerry Kaplan: We behave poorly. It's mostly 00:04:15 Jen Wahl: Gerry's fault. 00:04:16 Gerry Kaplan: I don't like this when I'm around other people though. 00:04:18 Jen Wahl: We act like children together. It's, it's fun for everybody else. I usually get injured. 00:04:24 Gerry Kaplan: By her own devices. She usually tries to like punch me in the arm and doesn't realize I've got a bunch of pens there. 00:04:30 Jen Wahl: That's happened more than once. I've injured myself attempting to injure Gerry. Yes. In front of other people. 00:04:36 Gerry Kaplan: Students included. 00:04:37 Jen Wahl: Yeah. Sorry about that. 00:04:40 Carlos Ramos: I need details. I need a specific, I need a story. 00:04:43 Gerry Kaplan: Okay. So should we start with how we met? 00:04:46 Carlos Ramos: Sure. 00:04:46 Gerry Kaplan: So we were working at a local high school together. I was teaching art and art history. She was teaching, history, world history. Eventually, she picked up psych and I think it was my first Christmas season at the school and someone drew me for Secret Santa. 00:05:03 Jen Wahl: What Gerry doesn't know until right this moment is I rigged it and I saw his name and pulled it on purpose because he was the new guy. So I was going to do something embarrassing to make him feel welcome. 00:05:12 Gerry Kaplan: And you can see the look of pure surprise in my face of hearing that she rigged it because this is very typical. But we were at what, what many of you may know today as Hana was at the time in its last stages of The Lodge. which was decorated in, you know, early 1980s hunting lodge. Lot of antlers, lot of taxidermy, so very different place. And someone just sat down at the booth next to me because I was being my normal anti social self and kept asking all these probing questions. And it was essentially hunting for what to get me for Secret Santa, and. 00:05:48 Jen Wahl: And now we're best friends. Yes. I can't stand when people seem like they're out of place or that they feel unwelcome. and so I'm. Very extroverted, and Gerry is not, at best, and so I decided it was going to become my mission to shove him out of his shell that, that school year. 00:06:11 Gerry Kaplan: You know what's really weird is this was, this was my second school I worked at, and someone had done the exact same thing, so I'm usually extrovert bait, where they're like, There's a lost cause here. I'll make them talk to people. Right. 00:06:22 Jen Wahl: And it works. 00:06:22 Gerry Kaplan: It turns out. 00:06:24 Jen Wahl: And here we are yet again. 00:06:26 Sumer Beatty: And look where it led you. 00:06:27 Gerry Kaplan: 14 years later. 00:06:29 Jen Wahl: Uh-huh. I know. That's terrifying. 00:06:32 Sumer Beatty: So you said he follows you around. Oh, yeah. How did that work? 00:06:38 Jen Wahl: So, what was it, 2011? Yeah. I went to China, with the National Consortium for Teaching About Asia, which was, I think it still is, a program, where you could learn about teaching for Asia, about Asia, and you actually got paid to do so, and you got college credits, which was helpful. And you could apply for an opportunity to travel to whatever country they were sponsoring to go to that year. And so in 2011, I went to China. Well, Gerry said, well, that's expensive. How are you pulling that off? And I said, well, I'm actually going for free. And I explained how. And so the next Sumer, Gerry turned around and took the class as well. And then you went to China with another organization. 00:07:21 Gerry Kaplan: I went, we did it in reverse order where we went on the same trip to Japan, but I went one year after you did. And then I went to China the year after with the Fulbright Hayes. And we were very much, we were emphatically told, you may not call yourselves a Fulbright scholar. Yeah. And there was this, this humorous anecdote of later we're in Beijing, stuck in traffic. And I had asked, okay, but what do we call ourselves? Prestigious. I won't put this on my resume, you know? And they were like, we'll get back to you. I was like, okay. So apparently they got the message to us later. So we're stuck in Beijing traffic on this small motor coach and two of the other teachers are up front. They're yelling back, you're a delegate. You're a delegate. Like, 'cause that was what we're supposed to call, we were delegates, but I heard it as delicate. I was like, why are you calling me delicate delicately? You are delicate. You seen traffic. It was a big, burly, bearded dude in the middle of, 00:08:11 Jen Wahl: I feel like that's not that unreasonable. 00:08:13 Gerry Kaplan: What to call me delicate? 00:08:14 Jen Wahl: Yes. But, but, but regardless, I'm going to remember it my way. 00:08:20 Gerry Kaplan: This is often the case. 00:08:21 Jen Wahl: And then I did, I applied for a program at the Japan Society and went to Japan for three weeks. And then Gerry said, well, that's a great idea. I'll, I'll do that. and then he went as well. And it was fun because we got to go back to work and share similar experiences, but from a different curricular point of view. And then sometimes we would teach together, which also, usually went well for the students, but I usually got injured. 00:08:42 Gerry Kaplan: It was like the Muppet Show. It was entertaining, it was educational, but there was usually just the threat of violence or something inappropriate. 00:08:48 Jen Wahl: There were things that got thrown at me on a regular basis, stuffed animals, gloves. Yeah. And then after that, I started adjuncting at Penn College and I said, Hey, like this is, this is decent extra cash. And he said, I want to do that. And then before you know it. He did that, and then I applied for a full time job, he applied for a full time job, and here we are, yet again. 00:09:05 Gerry Kaplan: And the Teacher of the Year. 00:09:06 Jen Wahl: Oh, I forgot about that! Yeah, we were both nominated for State Teacher of the Year, and both did the finalist route, which is a very long route of videoing yourself. 00:09:15 Gerry Kaplan: Excuse me? Yours was long? Mine was stretched out over COVID. 00:09:19 Jen Wahl: Oh, I forgot about that. 00:09:19 Gerry Kaplan: So I was considered a finalist for both 2020 and 2021. I just drug it out for two years of, you know, this is the best time for me to have extra responsibilities. 00:09:29 Jen Wahl: Uh, huh. 00:09:29 Gerry Kaplan: Nothing stressful is going on in my education right now. 00:09:31 Jen Wahl: Yep. Well, that parade is over. 00:09:33 Gerry Kaplan: But someone took the, took the crown. 00:09:36 Jen Wahl: I did. Yeah. It was interesting. 00:09:39 Gerry Kaplan: I remember she had one day where she was like, I'm so stressed out. This is, it's, it's an honor. I'm so happy to do it, but it's so much work. Oh, by the way, I'm going to nominate you for this next year. So that's, that's very much sums up the nature of our relationship. Yep. Yeah, that's, that's pretty spot on. 00:09:55 Sumer Beatty: So tell us a little bit about your backgrounds. I don't think we talked about that yet. We've determined you worked together in the past and you work together now, but what, you've two different backgrounds. Yes. 00:10:05 Jen Wahl: You can go first. 00:10:06 Gerry Kaplan: So I, my family is from this area. My mom's side apparently can be traced back to, as they say Mayflower times, but I don't know if it's quite that far back. But my parents were kind of tired of the area, got out of Dodge, had the kids along the way. So I was actually born overseas. I was born in London, England. My father is a retired geologist. He was working for Phillips 66. So they were overseas when they had myself and my sister. So I then came back to the States when I was about five and we lived in Houston, Texas. So if you wonder why I don't really have a strong accent or any accent at all, it's because those things are like fire and ice, they go to cancel each other out. And you, you know, when you're in kindergarten on a Houston playground in the 80s, you learn to fight when you, when you have a British accent to yourself. So I was, had both very metropolitan city life and I had very rural, you know, learning to go catfishing in, in the, the little creeks around our house and stuff like that. And then I lived in Allentown for a while and then we moved back to this area. So I've, I've known the area since I've kind of spent my teen years here. I mean, I've always known it just, this is where grandma and grandpa live. I went to Penn State, did my, undergrad in art education with a specialty in ceramics and then taught down south for about five and a half years teaching just ceramics at just a really public high school that just was able to build a great facility there. did my first master's down there in gifted and talented, came back to this area, started teaching at Loyal Sock where I met Jen, and then during that time I also did my MFA, my terminal degree in visual arts, and then, like we said, we both started adjuncting here and then came over full time. 00:11:43 Sumer Beatty: And you are a very talented artist. 00:11:45 Gerry Kaplan: I have my moments. 00:11:48 Sumer Beatty: I'm waiting for that to come out. You're like, you identify as an artist, you're an artist and a teacher. 00:11:53 Gerry Kaplan: Yeah. And you have to kind of walk both, both lines. you are expected generally in higher ed to have some type of show record. you are expected to be a contributing member to the artistic world at large. So, and that's something that's actually kind of nice is it keeps your hand in it. So it's nice to kind of have that expectation because it benefits you in the long run. 00:12:13 Jen Wahl: As far as my background goes, I was born and raised at least partially in the New York metropolitan area. So Queens and Long Island. But my mom immigrated to the United States. So I also spent the first 12 years of my life living back and forth in her home country. So back in the Middle East in more than one location and then back in the United States. So I kind of walked the line of a first generation kid. in the United States. So I had like a, a mom who had a very different background, but I was a very American 90s child. And then I went to, I went to college at Cabrini University, which no longer exists, I just found out. And yeah, they, they just shut their doors. and after that I got a job here at Loyalsock High School and I moved. And got a master's degree at Penn State and along the way I decided that I was going to try to see as much of the world as I possibly can. So I set myself goals. I wanted to see 30 before 30, 40 before 40, etc. I hit 50 before 40 so I was pretty proud of myself about that. But I wanted to experience every continent and I felt that it was my duty and job to do that because I teach history. And I wanted to bring my experiences back to the classroom. Oftentimes I would have students that hadn't left the county, let alone the country. And so I would want to bring the experiences into the classroom for them. So traveling for me offered this like educational benefit to my students, but also it was just, it was really fun to eat different foods and, you know, rub elbows with different people and learn about different religions and cultures. And so that was a huge part of my life before I came to Penn College. It was my motivating factor to, to like, continue to go back to the classroom and innovate. I think that public education can sometimes become very redundant. You are expected to do the same things, abide by the same standards. They barely ever change. You're with the same people all of the time, but if you spice it up a little bit and get a different perspective, you can come back every year with, I don't know, a fresh start and a appreciation for what you have. 00:14:18 Sumer Beatty: So what did you think of Penn College when you first came here? 00:14:21 Jen Wahl: I love Penn College. This place does work. It's literally degrees that, that do work. And when I was state teacher of the year, I was told on the spot that I had to pick a platform and my platform had to do with career centered learning. I think that a lot of the, the degrees that we award in different locations, I'm not talking about at Penn College, but the degrees that are awarded to people around the country and around the world that don't have a career tied to them can be very, very problematic. What are you going to do when you graduate college with a degree and you don't have the job skills that are associated with it? We do, we don't do that here. We, all of our students graduate with degrees that work and that's why I wanted to work here and that's what I appreciate about this place. 00:15:03 Gerry Kaplan: Yeah, with being in an art field, that's a big question of this, this, they often talk about there being like a pyramid scheme of you go, you get your art degree, then you teach other people to get their art degree. And I really am attracted to not only the career base, but just the hands on aspect of things. With my medium, it's so hands on. Even within, like, the visual arts, it's the one where you are elbow deep in this stuff, and when we taught high school, I remember day one of the ceramics class when you had to get up and tell the class, like, my name is, I'm in this grade. I literally made students do it with their elbow, with their arm up to their elbow in the clay bucket, because we would get students who, you know, they either didn't know what they were signing up for, or our guidance would just kind of dump them. And, you know, if you're not willing to touch clay, it's not going to be a great semester. But here I don't have to worry about that, because they've been, they've had their hand in a diesel engine, or their pre- dental, their hand was just in someone's mouth, or it was inside a turkey or something. The hands are, we have a culinary program. It's true. 00:16:09 Jen Wahl: When you said that, I got a little freaked out. 00:16:11 Gerry Kaplan: But I don't have to worry about that at all. In fact, they're, they're gung ho. They're, they're ready to get their hands into it. So for me, it's a dream come true. It's students who are, willing to jump in and just try and get their hands literally dirty. 00:16:24 Carlos Ramos: How do we get dirty in history? 00:16:26 Jen Wahl: Oh, well that's interesting. So one of the things that I love to do in classes explain on the first day that this isn't just going to be me telling you facts. I'm going to relate this to what it is that you do for, that you're going to do for the rest of your life. I'll give you a quick example. When we talk about the Industrial Revolution in, in History 126. I assign my students a project where they're to find something that was invented during that time period and they're to take that and then show the evolution of it and how it benefits them in their major today. So my goal isn't just for them to learn history and be well rounded people, of course that's part of the goal. But my goal is for them to understand how that ties to what they're doing today. Everything is more exciting when it's meaningful to you. 00:17:07 Carlos Ramos: I think I would have enjoyed history a lot more. 00:17:12 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. So I do think you have some students who go to a technical college and think, well, gee, I want to just learn how to fix this HVAC or I want to understand electrical. Why do I need to know about history? Why do I need to know about psychology? Why do I need to know, you know, be involved with art? What's your answer to that? How do you address that when it comes up? 00:17:33 Gerry Kaplan: With art, it's such an ingrained part of our culture that if you want to know who you are, if you want to know what your society is, if you want to know what your country is, you look to their visual art. if you think about the pandemic, when things started to shut down, what did we go to? The arts. What do we need to, to keep us, ourselves going, you know? And we've seen it in other countries, and Jane can probably speak on this more accurately than I can with her history background, but during the Cultural Revolution in China, they decided, okay, we need to get rid of all these things that are holding us back. We need to be a modern, a leader in this world, so let's get rid of all this stuff. And then they realized, after the fact, that's who we are, that's part of our identity. And they tried to bring it back and I'll be, we, this is something we've kind of disagreed on. I, Japan for me was the visual smorgasbord. Whereas when I went to China, so much of it felt like there was something amazing here and now here's the styrofoam version that we've swapped it out for. So that really defines us. I mean, if you want to know what a country is, you look, you look for their visual, you look for their culture, you look for their arts, their music. Those are the things that define us. It also is a method for just communication. It's a chance for you to, to express yourself, to say what you feel about something, where you want something to be, what you think is right, what you think is questionable. It's a method of that communication. And there's also just a great cartoon about, you know, if we teach people all these STEM based things, but we don't teach them the arts and humanities, that's how you get Spider-Man villains or, you know, you need to have that balance. And it's, I've seen the inverse of that. I'm very technological based in a lot of my artwork and I have that because my education required me to have some element of being well rounded, of still having the sciences even though I was an arts major. So just being that well rounded citizen and just knowing your culture, knowing who you are. And contributing to it. When you, when you come into even just a 100 level art class and you make something, you are contributing to that larger body of what North American culture is. So that's again, giving you that voice, giving you that say in what we are. 00:19:35 Jen Wahl: It's a great explanation. I don't compliment you very often. I get this question all the time. I get this question all the time. Why do I have to take This class, specifically in psychology, maybe students are there because they have to be, but I hope by the end they leave with a better understanding of themselves and the people that they're going to work with in the future, and maybe even their family members. But my whole goal in that class is not only for them to understand the basics and the constructs and the tenets of the course, but for them to understand, hey, you might be a leader one day. Here is a way to lead that is going to be helpful to other people. This is a way that is going to be detrimental. Here is the way your mind will work when this happens. Here is why it works differently when this happens. I also like for them to look at the world through different perspectives and understand why certain people from certain places act differently. That, that offers itself a nice discussion in sociology when we talk about culture and stuff like that. And history, I mean, I, I think that that one I, I explained earlier, but even so, when I get that question in history, I always ask, do you want to be a welder, or do you want to be a welder and a well rounded citizen? And so it's, it's better for them to graduate from here and not just understand what it is that their degree specifically offered, but it's important for them to graduate with their skills and skills for being a good American citizen or wherever they frankly are, are coming from. When I first came here, someone said to me that, they were asked upon getting a job about welding in a different country. And at first they were really, really concerned about that because they didn't really know and understand that particular place and they didn't really know and understand the people and the religion, et cetera. And then when they took a few history classes and they got the job, they realized the importance of taking that class and what it is that they could do with that somewhere else, if that makes sense. 00:21:38 Sumer Beatty: That definitely makes sense. I like that you gave an example because I was going to ask you. I just think there are probably cases where you have students in both of your courses where they came in, they're a little uneasy, they're not quite sure if they belong there, they don't know what to do. It's not their element. But then by the end of the semester, you, you see them progress, you see them mature. And they maybe even, change their career trajectory a bit. You know, oh, I can envision myself now doing this. Whereas when I got here, I really was just kind of planning on doing this. 00:22:10 Jen Wahl: That happens a lot with psychology and I don't necessarily know why, but I have students approach me and either pick up a minor in psychology or they decide that they're going to do something different than what they came in with. I usually don't ask many questions because I don't want to meddle, but I hear that often specifically in that class. I also tend to get first year students in Psych 111, whereas I don't. Necessarily get that in like History 116 or History 126. 00:22:32 Sumer Beatty: Psychology Totally makes sense. . That's where I was thinking because I never had psychology in high school. 00:22:37 Jen Wahl: Oh really? 00:22:37 Sumer Beatty: And I remember, psychology and sociology and anthropology in college and just being like, whoa, oh my goodness. Why did no one tell me about this? It's just so eyeopening. And I bet the same happens in art. 00:22:50 Gerry Kaplan: Yeah. 00:22:50 Sumer Beatty: To some degree. 00:22:51 Gerry Kaplan: I myself, when I took art in high school, I wanted to make these big sculptures because I was, you know, I was the big fish in the small pond and everything I made out of clay blew up in the kiln. So because my teacher didn't know how to fire things slow enough and properly to make sure that larger pieces survived. So when I got to undergrad, my plan was to be a 2D drawing and painting. That was my, my shtick at the time. And I needed X amount of 200 level classes. in studio. And ceramics just happened to fit my schedule for that semester. And I remember like we finished our first project and we were loading him into the kiln. And I remember telling a friend who I had known from an earlier class, like jokingly saying, don't put yours next to mine. I'm cursed. Everything I make blows up. And it survived. And I found out why all my old pieces were going, were going kaboom, and I sort of just kept up with it, and I had, I always tell my students, like, if you want to get good at the wheel, like when we started the potter's wheel, have the world's worst roommate, because I did that semester, and I realized that if I was at the studio, I wasn't in my apartment, and I wasn't around him. So that's how I learned to throw really well, was just repetition, repetition, repetition. But initially I had that, that idea in my head that this is not for me, and when I was kind of forced to try it and had some better guidance with it, I took off and I'm, now I'm teaching. you know, full time in ceramics. So there's, you know, there's always that temptation to try something again, to give it another shot, maybe with a different guidance, maybe with someone else to kind of walk you through it, or just trying something completely different within that field really can be beneficial. 00:24:26 Jen Wahl: I think Gerry and I are good examples of people who made a career out of our passion, like what it is that we really love. Oftentimes I hear specifically for my husband that you don't always have to make money doing what you love, but you're really lucky if you do. And I think we had this opportunity and we seized it. Like we get to make money and do what we love and work with other people every single day. And I think that that's something that like we like to show off to others too. You can, you can do what you love and you can also, you know, make money doing that and be proud of it. You can make that dream possible. I find specifically working here that when I talk to students, a lot of them made the decision to come here because they wanted to do something they do actually love. At the high school, I would run into My mom and or dad want me to do this because it's going to make a lot of money someday and I score well on exams. But I really enjoy this. What do you think that I should do? That's a tough question. It depends on what you want to do later in life, the financial comforts that you desire, and only you can make that specific decision. But I always used to guide students to find somebody who did what mom and dad wanted them to do and ask them about what their life is like and see if they seem happy and satisfied. And then conversely, turn around and look for somebody who's an adult who's achieved in what you're passionate about and see if they're happy or if they would like to have done something different. It's important to talk to people with experience. I hardly see that here though, and I'm sure you probably have similar experiences. 00:26:00 Gerry Kaplan: I would agree. especially here. I get mostly upperclassmen. So by the time I get them, they're usually pretty set in their path. But even when I was adjuncting and saw a lot of the underclassmen, it was, I would just echo what Jen says, that by the time they're here, they're pretty set. But at the high school, it's a very tricky conversation, especially with the arts, because I would constantly get, My kid has this great passion, but I don't want them to start. That was, you know, they don't want to crush their kid's hope, their spirit, their talent, but they also want their kid to function. Jen, end. You know, that's a tricky conversation and there are ways to make art and in our society, but they are, you know, you kind of have to, you know, they'll joke that you have to sell your soul a little bit. And where do you feel comfortable with that? Are you fine working for some mega conglomerate who's going to make you make visual ads for cigarettes and things like that? You know, where does that hit for you? Or are you fine just selling mugs at the local craft fair, or did you, you know, kind of navigating and helping them figure out what feels right for you. 00:27:04 Jen Wahl: But here specifically in psychology, we talk about individualistic versus collective cultures. And in the United States, we live in an individualistic culture. We make our decisions to benefit ourselves and for self growth in collective cultures. People make the decisions based on their families and what's going to improve their family stature, family name, and what's not going to bring shame upon their family. And every single semester I say, how many of you are here doing something because you made that decision? And all nine years, well, I've been here four years full time and then five additional years. As an adjunct, and all nine total years that I've asked that question, I have had one student raise their hand and say, I'm here because my parents work here and they're forcing me to take gen eds. So one person out of all those years, that just proves that everybody is coming here because they want to be here and they want to learn, major in something and develop a career that we, that we offer, which is interesting. It's societal, but it's also what this place has to offer. 00:28:03 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. I think you compare that to some other institutions and the different, there would be a different number of students with their hands raised at that point in time. 00:28:10 Jen Wahl: Absolutely. I, I recently spoke to a, a friend that I graduated from high school with. He's an actuary. He makes lots of money. And I, I jokingly said, how's that boring career going? And he said, it is just. That 00:28:24 Sumer Beatty: Aw . 00:28:24 Jen Wahl: And I remember when we graduated, I said, you wanna go to school for actuarial science? I don't even know what that is. And he explained to me what it is, and he jokingly said, it's gonna be really boring. And of course I made the joke with him, so how's that boring career going? And, and he said it, it's really boring, but it makes lots of money. And so it makes, you know, him and his family very financially comfortable. I think we have to make choices sometimes. 00:28:49 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, I agree with what you said about you just go into any of our labs and we always say like, you know, in our marketing, you get to work in these labs, but the word work is very loose. You go in there and they're not, it doesn't look like they're working. I mean, when you're having fun, I mean, they're tinkering in there. You know, adjusting machines and doing all these things, they're, they're in their element and they are just loving it. It doesn't, I don't feel like it, it seems like you're experiencing work. And so, you know, that goes out into the workplace too. 00:29:17 Jen Wahl: Yeah. There's a creative element to that, right? Yes. 00:29:20 Sumer Beatty: Any student projects you want to talk about? Anything kind of fun or interesting you have students working on? 00:29:25 Gerry Kaplan: we're still doing the fantasy houses. So if you're on campus and you see these little clay structures that are slowly dissolving. 00:29:31 Sumer Beatty: Fantasy houses. So are they like. Little things that are in the, they're like landscaping? They're, 00:29:38 Gerry Kaplan: they're hidden around campus. So first day of class you get to make a little clay structure. We don't fire them so they will dissolve when the rains go through and we just hide them on campus and then we kind of check back later and see how they're dissolving. Did someone, you know, did one get a kick? Did one meet the lawnmower? And it's, it's something that my, my predecessors started and I've kind of kept going. So that's one of the on campus things that we do, that we do that one every semester. We're working on some tiles that we're going to hopefully get approved to make a mural. I'm not sure quite where that will be, and we're also continuing, we're going to change up our empty bowls fundraiser that we do with the Pantry. It's going to be empty mugs this year. We should have some bowls from last year as well, so it'll be both, but that will be in the fall, and all the money we raise from that goes to the Wildcat Pantry. 00:30:25 Carlos Ramos: So when were the fantasy houses last placed? 00:30:29 Gerry Kaplan: I believe some of them were placed last week because another class was doing them. We had set ours out at the beginning of the semester. So it's always interesting because sometimes, depending on what the weather is, we've had one semester where they all froze and we had a very cold winter. So nothing happened to them because they were just solid ice. And then as soon as they thawed, the next, the next rain we got, it just looked like piles of oatmeal. So they had a very quick degradation where other times it takes a while for things to decompose and start falling apart. but it's usually the first week of the semester, you'll see them pop up around campus. 00:31:01 Carlos Ramos: Okay. And the reason I asked this, cause I actually ran across three students and it looked like they had them in there. 00:31:06 Gerry Kaplan: They're out planning. 00:31:07 Carlos Ramos: Yeah. And I asked them, where are you going to put these? Because I'm like, I want to go get, you know, photos to be able to put on our social media and all that, but they were very secretive. 00:31:16 Gerry Kaplan: Oh yeah, you gotta hide them. It's like the Easter egg hunter. 00:31:18 Jen Wahl: I feel like Student Activities could have a scavenger hunt with these. 00:31:21 Gerry Kaplan: This isn't the .. . 00:31:21 Jen Wahl: No one's gonna get that joke. 00:31:25 Gerry Kaplan: These aren't Easter eggs, how about that? 00:31:26 Carlos Ramos: Yeah, you know, what was really interesting, you know, I knew these students weren't, you know, they weren't art students, they weren't graphic design students. These were students that were from appearance anyway, they were just coming from some other engineering technology. programs, but they were just so into what they were doing. 00:31:43 Gerry Kaplan: Oh yeah. And that's one of the things I really like about working here is I get such, you know, I have more welding and HVAC students than I do in graphic design. So I get these fresh perspectives coming in and sometimes they've got some really just great ideas that you don't hear from a normal group of like what you would consider to be traditional art students. So I really welcome that. I love getting students from all across campus into my classes and seeing just the different variety of things they pull out. It's, it's really interesting for me. 00:32:11 Jen Wahl: And just like to throw this out there about your course, I routinely see students in my classes that I know are not arts majors planning something that they're going to be making in your class. 00:32:21 Gerry Kaplan: And it's functional, which is again, it plays really well with our students where it's not... there, there you could argue there is a functionality to a painting on a wall. It provides us with an aesthetic experience and makes our lives more, you know, yada, yada, yada. But I mean, this is literally not just functional, but utilitarian so that when they're making things with their hands all day, it's natural for them to say, all right, When I make this mug, he's looking for me to make it not just a visually interesting piece, but the ergonomics is a big thing we talk about. We talk about, is it going to function? And that's something that really leans into some of our hands on majors. So that's something that, again, I really like working with our particular students because they come with that mechanical, that hands on just curiosity. It's, I don't have to pull that out of them. It's already there. I just have to add the aesthetic. I have to add the visual. But that, that urge to create is already with them, so that's, that's half the battle right there. 00:33:13 Jen Wahl: I thinGerryry and I have always taught in that way that we're not just going to learn to learn, we're going to learn to do. 00:33:18 Gerry Kaplan: Yeah. 00:33:19 Jen Wahl: And, and, I mean, obviously what you teach lends itself a little bit better to that, but we're going to learn to do something with what we're learning. 00:33:27 Gerry Kaplan: And we're going to learn to be able to learn by ourselves as well. Yes. I think that's something that we've both pushed is not just, you know, turn and burn, here's the info, memorize it, test next week, but then we forget. We want them, we teach them to be functional. to take the skills that we applied to this project or to this lecture and be able to use that knowledge and those skills. So it's not just about building knowledge. Knowledge is one piece of information. A skill is something that you can go in and you can take whatever knowledge is presented to you, whether it's from discovery of your own or whether it's from, you know, from books and traditional, and then create your new ideas to function with those ideas to say, all right, if, if this worked in this previous one, how is it going to work in this situation? And I think that's something that's a big difference is we don't just want them to, again, memorize. We want them to develop an actual skill. And I think with hands on learning, that's very natural for them. 00:34:20 Jen Wahl: Because knowledge is a tree, right? I mean, it's not a stop sign. So knowledge, if it's a tree, it keeps growing and it builds upon itself and it grows branches and leaves and And so you can continue on with that and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. If it's just facts and it's just information, that's a stop sign and it doesn't leave room for discussion and growth. 00:34:39 Gerry Kaplan: And the other thing is with, especially, I mean, everyone's really, really concerned about AI, but I mean, other things have existed for decades. As far as If I just wanted you to memorize, we've got a book for that. You've got Google for that. When I tell students, like when we do art history, you can go into the museum and the placard with the date and the artist is all there. The information's there. I want you to be able to apply knowledge that, okay, this relates to this other artist or relates to this other style, or I've seen something similar but a little bit different, so that you can apply that knowledge. The knowledge is there. We want you to be able to apply it. We want you to develop skills. We don't need you to memorize 500 facts because you can look up the 500 facts. 00:35:20 Carlos Ramos: How does project based learning apply in your area? 00:35:23 Jen Wahl: Well, I mean, sitting and listening is, is one thing, but if you're not doing, you are not learning. So, sure, I lecture, I teach lecture courses, but what I like to do is tie something to lectures so that students are doing and they are growing their tree of knowledge. Does that make sense? So it doesn't necessarily have to be a project per se, but perhaps it's a paper. I just did something like this in one of my history classes where we learned about revolutions and then we compared it to what somebody once said are the steps of a revolution, the anatomy, if you will, of a revolution. How do we get there? And is it a real revolution or isn't it a revolution? And I let them pick anything they want that was historic and then compare it to a modern day revolution. I got your traditional things like we're going to compare the American revolution to the Tunisian revolution. That's fine. But I also got really creative ideas. Like we're going to compare the industrial revolution, which is not necessarily a war fought. Or, or was it? And then students compared it to the information revolution, which is something that I think they totally made up, but it's an interesting concept of information today and AI, things like that. They're, they're making the argument that it's revolutionary. So I'm giving them the concepts to think about. And then letting them grow that knowledge on their own. 00:36:48 Sumer Beatty: I can only imagine the diversity you've got in your class, knowing you have such a wide range of students. It makes it more interesting as an instructor probably because in high school you may be reading the same types of papers over and over, but with a different approach. Diverse thinking that you have in there. It makes it more interesting for grading papers probably. 00:37:06 Jen Wahl: I oftentimes hear from people who teach in programs like, oh wow. How do you teach people in all these different majors? Isn't that so challenging? I find it more difficult the other way around. When I have a class that's full of forestry students or full of automotive students, or full of baking students, I don't know what to do with myself because I have structured everything to diversify the content, if that makes sense. 00:37:25 Sumer Beatty: Yeah, it's a huge value as a student too. I mean, you're, you're coming in and you get access to all these different thoughts. You're not just in the class with all your forestry majors. 00:37:35 Jen Wahl: Oh, sure. And sometimes in general education, that's the first time that my students will meet somebody that's outside of their program and actually have to work with them on something. 00:37:43 Sumer Beatty: Good lesson. We didn't talk about being advisors. And I think that's a really critical role here. You act as advisors. What, what are those relationships like? And how do you, you know, facilitate the learning process through that advising piece? 00:37:58 Jen Wahl: I'm brand new to advising. I actually didn't have advisees at all until this past or this school year, and I'm really enjoying it. I'm learning about the different programs. I'm learning about students and what their interests are. And I find it a unique opportunity to get to know our students in a very different way and help them look at their, not only path here at Penn College but their career path after Penn College. 00:38:19 Gerry Kaplan: I started advising right out of the bat. They, they gave me a few people to work with. It varies greatly from student to student. I would say I have some students who want and need quite a bit of guidance and some who kind of just have their everything in all their ducks in a row and they know where to go with stuff. They just need the code and they're ready to call it a day. But what was really interesting for me was I, I've fallen to graphic design, even though I haven't taught that in two years. And when I did teach it, I was as an adjunct and I was teaching the, the intro first year student classes. So for me, it was a lot of trying to figure out what some of those advanced courses were, and it made sense and just kind of happening to get that under my wing. But a lot of times it's just, all right. This isn't working out for me. How do I change my major? And we, you know, we don't want to see that happen because we want our interspeed, but at the same time, you can tell sometimes it's, it's the right move. Sometimes it's just kind of helping a kid figure out sequencing because they might've, something happened. They got knocked off sequence a little bit. And sometimes it's just like the dorm's not working for me. What do I do? Or I, I, I'm having trouble really talking to this one instructor and, and just kind of really kind of just saying, these are some options. Because as you're transitioning at this period, like we're used to dealing with, you know, a ninth grader is usually around 13, 14 years old. They need a lot more of like, all right, step by step. Whereas when you're dealing with a young adult, it's more about, all right, here's your options. You can do A, B, and C. If you do A, this is going to happen, but this might happen too. And, and letting them kind of take that path. I think there's a lot more of just, we're guiding them, but we're not spoon feeding as much. 00:39:56 Jen Wahl: Oh, sure. I mean, I've had those conversations go off the rails. You know, you're talking about classes you're going to take and before you know it, I get a long pause and say, hey, Do you know how do I apply for health insurance? Things like that. So I find that we're mentors even when we don't necessarily position ourselves that way. 00:40:17 Gerry Kaplan: Especially with first generation students who I, I was kind of told here's a fast perform good luck kid as far as paying for college, but I had the privilege of having parents who had both been college educated and knew just some of the things to look out for and it was helpful. It helped me get through and some of our students don't have that, especially students who don't really have a relative or someone close to them who has been through the college experience. And also the college experience has changed. It's not what it was when I went through and that was only 20 years ago compared to someone whose parents might be even older than that. So a lot of it is just kind of, all right, here's your options. Here's what typically happens. You can try this. You can try this, and letting them kind of choose their own path from there. 00:41:04 Sumer Beatty: You mentioned the mentor role, and I always like to ask if you had any mentors that impacted your journey. 00:41:11 Jen Wahl: Oh yeah. 00:41:11 Sumer Beatty: Yeah. 00:41:13 Jen Wahl: I student taught with a man named Ray Kodish. I actually think that his brother might have worked here at Penn College. The interesting part is I am not from here and Ray was not living here. I was student teaching at Spring Ford Area School District and Ray had something on his door that said Jersey Shore Area School District and I said to him, I'm going to move to Williamsport when I'm done here. And his first question was, why? And then he took a long pause and said, would you do that? we had a great relationship. I walked into student teaching as a 21 year old kid, and I had no idea what I was doing. And I was completely underprepared and not confident at all in myself or my craft. And Ray gave me a good kick in the butt, which is what I needed, and he gave me the confidence, and he would sometimes, I'm pretty sure you can't do this today, but he would leave the room and go, you got it, you got it, and I, I finally learned I, I do have it, and I can do this. And without Ray, I would not have, I don't know that A, I would have gone into teaching. I think I would have, I think I would have quit. I don't think I would have walked into my classroom with the confidence that I had, and I certainly do not think that I would have been here today. I'm super thankful for him. Unfortunately, he passed away, but he was a major influence in my life. And I still sometimes channel the things that he told me 20 plus years ago to gain a little bit of confidence to go and do something I wouldn't normally do. 00:42:58 Gerry Kaplan: I had an official mentor in my MFA program. So I went to a very small school for my MFA. It's called Wilson. It's down in Chambersburg, PA. And they kind of realized, hey, we're, we're not a giant school. We can't get a specialist in all these different areas. So they outsourced it. They literally said, all right, you need to find a mentor outside of this institution. We will pay them an actually pretty decent fee to meet with you every three weeks. It could be, and this was before this was right before the pandemic. So they were, we were using Zoom. before it was quote unquote cool. and they said aim high, like pick someone who's in your field and is not just like a, a schlub. And I took that to heart and I took a wild stab and I was able to land Tom Bartel. He is the head of ceramics at Ohio University, which is the number three school in the nation. So I was going to this very no name small school. And I was getting kind of this really high end education, at least from, from the mentorship. So he met with me every three weeks. Our plan was to meet in person at this big national convention that we both would go to, but then the pandemic shut that down. So it wasn't actually until I graduated that I finally got to meet him in person. But for three weeks, you know, he was checking my work. We were having really great conversations about not only the mechanics of ceramics in the field, but just art in general, and just also getting into higher ed as far as in the teaching capacity. So he really, really helped me. and again, that was in an official capacity that he was labeled as a mentor on a W2. Prior to that coming right out of student teaching and with my first teaching position, I had landed a job down at Hilton Head Island High School. if you're a golfer, you know where that is. If you don't. It's outside Savannah. And my predecessor was still with the district. They, the school was over capacity. They built a new school. He went to the new school. I took his old position and I just remember him coming in. He wanted to make sure the new guy like knew the ropes and knew where things were. And I remember what really impressed me was a student, random student showed up and the interactions and the warmth and the, the guidance that he gave the students. I assumed it was his daughter. And it was not, but just that that was my first impression really spoke to me and he was kind of positioned to be a mentor. He turned out to be much more of a colleague of bouncing ideas off of each other. But it was just a really great relationship as far as someone who was from Pennsylvania as well. He was also a transplant. He had a background in ceramics. He had also spent some time in the UK. just someone that I could really vibe with. And he was the first person that made me go to this conference, this national conference. And I was on the hotel room floor, like, you know, I was there with barely enough money for food. And, you know, the next year I went again and I went again and I went again and I always wanted to present and unfortunately he passed away two years ago. I got to present at this March, this conference, and I remember that first time when he met with me with that student afterwards, like, let's go get a drink, a very common thing for, you know, a predecessor or, to tell their, their successor, and he told me, I'm very specifically, you can get beer and wine, but don't get a mixed drink. Cause South Carolina used to have this really weird liquor law, kind of made mixed drinks super expensive. So I was like, okay, fine, whatever. And so after I presented and the conference was over for the day, I went and found like a local dive bar, not far from my Airbnb and ordered a glass of wine and a glass of beer. And had them both because it was sort of my salute to him for if he couldn't make it in person, I wanted him to at least be there in spirit. So that was my, my sappy moment that, you know, makes up for all the times I'm doing horrible, horrible things around campus. 00:46:42 Sumer Beatty: I doubt that. While we're keeping it light, I heard that you like to play practical jokes on each other. Is that true? 00:46:51 Gerry Kaplan: Oh boy. I need to speak to my lawyer and I have no recollection of any of these events. 00:46:58 Jen Wahl: We have no idea what you're talking about. At all. 00:47:02 Sumer Beatty: What's the latest? 00:47:03 Gerry Kaplan: The latest? No. 00:47:05 Jen Wahl: That's not, that's not PG 13. 00:47:08 Gerry Kaplan: No. Some of the more, some of the more podcast friendly ones. Someone has a phobia of Furbies. Or not a phobia, but a high aversion. 00:47:15 Jen Wahl: Do you know those popped up in my office yesterday? I went in to do a little work. I opened my drawer. Boom! Two of them were in there. 20 year old Furbies blinking at me with one eye. It's your fault. A long time ago. Good finding out on the Furby thing, because there's a lot of other things I was about to mention. A long time ago I made a comment to my students at Loyalsock that I hate Furbies and I would like to have a bonfire and burn them all. And I explained why. I got one as a gift when I was 14, and then I shoved it in my closet and I never looked at it again. Well, graduated high school, went to college, moved to Williamsport, much to Ray Kodish's dismay, and went home to unpack my closet at dad's house to bring it with me. And I opened my closet and there's this Furby eyes open, yelling at me almost, you know, eight, nine years later. And I thought, this is not good. These things never die. So I made this big, grandiose gesture about how much I hate them. Well, I went out for, I think, some surgery, or I think I had brain radiation. I think it was. Yes, that was pretty heavy surgery, or it wasn't really surgery, but I had a pretty heavy moment in my life. I come back to my classroom, and my students all look suspicious. And I'm looking at the ceiling and there's tiny things everywhere and they're hanging from the lights and I go and sit down at my desk and there's one sitting in the chair, you know, eyes wide open, looking right at me. I opened the desk drawer, Gerry went out and I don't know if you went to every garage sale in, you know, the tri state area or whatever, but there were, There were hundreds of Furbies in my classroom. Printed, tiny ones, giant ones. I'm still, I have quit that job and moved out and I am still finding them in my life. My kids have now latched onto them. There's like a random ugly one with horrible colors in the basement and somehow there's new batteries in it, Uncle Gerry. I don't believe you. 00:49:18 Gerry Kaplan: You used to always announce my birthday, adding, adding obscene amounts of years, not like, oh, this is plausible. And every now and then we had a, we had a coworker who would ask, Are you really 50? And I was like 32 that year or something. 00:49:33 Jen Wahl: Do that on a regular basis. Sometimes I would announce his birthday two or three times a year. And then the same coworker would go wish him a happy birthday. And I was like, how many times do you think he was born? I don't, I don't understand. I one time told Gerry we were going to go do something fun. And then we went and judged a beauty pageant for eight hours. 00:49:52 Gerry Kaplan: I nearly murdered her on that one. 00:49:54 Jen Wahl: Oh my God. He's still really mad at me. Very 00:49:57 Gerry Kaplan: mad at you. There's still revenge coming for that. 00:49:59 Jen Wahl: There, there was revenge. You've had revenge for years. It's still there. 00:50:04 Gerry Kaplan: And it will continue. 00:50:07 Jen Wahl: You filled my office with Lumpy Space Princess paraphernalia my first year here and you didn't even work here. I don't even know how you got that in there. 00:50:15 Gerry Kaplan: I have ways. 00:50:15 Jen Wahl: It's still there. still everywhere. That's the thing about Gerry. When he hides something like it'll be months before you locate it, and it will be the most embarrassing moment of your life. Like for example, a student comes in to talk to you about something or you know, heavens forbid your supervisor and you open your desk drawer and something comes walloping out of there at full speed. Gerry's hid stuff in my glove compartment. He's hid stuff in my center console that will just conveniently come flying out of nowhere. 00:50:42 Gerry Kaplan: You haven't found everything yet either. That's 00:50:45 Jen Wahl: terrifying. My mother has located things. She's like, what's I don't, I don't know. It's Gerry. 00:50:51 Gerry Kaplan: You'd be bored if I were normal. 00:50:52 Jen Wahl: My kids obsessed with spiders because of you. 00:50:54 Gerry Kaplan: That's not my fault. 00:50:55 Jen Wahl: I disagree. I 00:50:56 Gerry Kaplan: encourage it. I'm not my doing. 00:50:59 Sumer Beatty: Well, you'll like to keep it fun. That's good. 00:51:02 Gerry Kaplan: And if you're being entertained, you're going to retain information. 00:51:04 Jen Wahl: Exactly. 00:51:05 Gerry Kaplan: Like we've done lectures, like there's been a piece of art where maybe she's seen it. I've traveled pretty extensively, but nothing compared to what she's done. And there might be like, in our history, there might be a piece that she's has photos from or she's been, and she can tell the tale of what it's like. So she's popped in a few times and I've come in for like to do some like renaissance painting lectures and usually like they'll remember it like usually we end up like smacking each other in the arm and like chasing each other around the room but it's an it's memorable and there's information in there and if you're entertaining as you're as you're educating the two go hand in hand. 00:51:37 Jen Wahl: Yeah I've had people say to me like it's not my job to be an entertainer. Yeah it is. 00:51:42 Gerry Kaplan: It's a performance. 00:51:43 Jen Wahl: Yeah it's absolutely a performance. You know people have said to me like wow you have so much energy I'm like yeah for this. You know, I go home exhausted every day, but, but, you know, everybody left here and I hope that they learn something because we can't just learn. We need to have fun while we're learning. 00:51:57 Sumer Beatty: Seeing how you both came from high school, I thought it would be important to ask if you had any advice for students at that level, looking for colleges, trying to figure out what they wanted to do. 00:52:07 Gerry Kaplan: Don't look for shoes that you think look impressive. Find shoes that fit you. So many people are looking for, I want to go to this college for whatever reason and sometimes it's a very valid reason because it's the number one school for this or because they have a strong program, but so often we would hear people who wanted to go to a college that was not a right fit because they felt there was prestige around it. Sometimes it was because of family traditions. Sometimes it was just as simple as, like, liking a sports team, but you really need to find a place where you're going to do the best and you're going to be challenged, but you're not going to be drowning in work that you're not going to be able to keep up with. That, I think, is super important. I've seen so many students crash and burn because of that. They went to a place where they think on the surface it's a good match for them, but it's really, really not. the other thing I would suggest is, especially in your first year, the mistake I made was I had a job lined up already. I was going to work, I was going to be an assistant manager at the store that was opening up and I was, you know, going to do all this and all this and all this and I crashed and burned and I ended up taking a semester off and that ended up being the best thing for me because it made me come back and realize, Okay, I need to get a, I need a major where I'm going to get a job because I didn't enjoy working at Journey Shoes 60 hours a week. And then at a Uni-Mart two nights a week on top of that. So really finding a place that's not where you want to go, but where you should go. And that eventually will become, you'll realize that's where you want to be anyway, because you're going to be happy. You're going to have a chance to succeed. You're still gonna have to work. But I think that a lot of our students went places or aim to go to places that were not in their best interest. 00:53:49 Jen Wahl: I'm just going to add to that. I've always told students, get uncomfortable, do something you normally wouldn't do, learn something, take a class you normally wouldn't take, and get outside of the box. That's what helps make you a well rounded person, and it will give you confidence later on. 00:54:08 Sumer Beatty: Wonderful advice. Thank you both so much and thanks for keeping it PG. 00:54:13 Jen Wahl: Thanks for having us. 00:54:14 Gerry Kaplan: Thanks for having the five second delay. 00:54:20 Sumer Beatty: Thanks for hanging out with us today. 00:54:21 Carlos Ramos: Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. 00:54:26 Sumer Beatty: Check out our show notes for bookmarks to your favorite sections and links to resources that we mentioned in today's episode. 00:54:32 Carlos Ramos: You can also find past episodes and see what's on deck for upcoming ones at pct.edu/podcast. 00:54:39 Sumer Beatty: And of course, we are open to your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions. So send those over at podcast@pct.edu. 00:54:47 Carlos Ramos: It's been real. 00:54:49 Sumer Beatty: Catch you next time. 00:54:52 Jen Wahl: Can I just jump in here and say that when I took your ceramics class, you made me go in up to my shoulder. I didn't know that elbow was an option. 00:54:59 Gerry Kaplan: Well, you're shorter, so we had to make sure the same distance was covered.